CornSnakes.com Forums  
  Tired of those Google and InfoLinks ads? Register and log in!

Go Back   CornSnakes.com Forums > The CornSnake Forums > General Chit-Chat Forum
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

General Chit-Chat Forum Discussion about general topics that are really off topic concerning corn snakes, or just about any old chit at all.

Ethics - Leopard Geckos
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-15-2006, 03:22 AM   #1
TripleMoonsExotic
Ethics - Leopard Geckos

I wanted to get some opinions from cornsnakes.com forum members that I respect. I wanted opinions and thoughts on a subject that is currently affecting the Leopard Gecko community, and that I find appalling.

First off, does anyone know who Ron Tremper is? If not, let me say that he is one of the individuals some consider "God" of Leopard Geckos. I consider Rich "God" of cornsnakes ( ). RT is on the other hand no where near as personable or driven for the species. More and more I learn about RT, I question his motives and think he's simply in it for the money. Now, I find their is absolutely nothing wrong with making money breeding and selling reptiles. However, I do have a problem when someone misinterprets what they are producing and the genetics behind it.

He has already screwed up by claiming a line he originated was a recessive mutation (Giant), and sold high dollar hets as such. Of course it bombed, the genes behind Giant however did prove out Codom. A lot of individuals dumped a lot of money into the het for nothing geckos, and he caught a lot of slack for it, which I believe he deserved.

The newest thing that's come out (as some of you may now) is the APTOR, RAPTOR and ECLIPSE mutations.

APTOR = Albino Patternless Tremper Orange
RAPTOR = Red-Eyed Albino Patternless Tremper Orange
ECLIPSE = Solid / Snake Eyed

Now, Tremper Albino is a proven recessive mutation. "Orange" aka Tangerine is a selectively bred mutation. ECLIPSE (or Red-Eyed if Albino) is unproven in its genetic inheritance. The Patternless in the APTOR/RAPTOR mutations is supposedly a new Patternless that is unproven in its genetic inheritance.

According to some individuals (Tremper, groovygeckos.com), if a mutation acts recessive (even though it isn't recessive) it is perfectly alright to slap normal offspring with the term het. I find this unethical. They are selling a animal, guaranteeing it's genetics when the genetics aren't there to guarantee.

With those facts, would you claim a gecko from a APTOR/RAPTOR parent could be het for APTOR/RAPTOR? Could you, ethically sell "het" for an unproven mutation for a decent sum of money (we're talking $500+)? Would you, as the founder of the mutation, prove out the genes behind it PRIOR to tossing it onto the market and taking money from individuals who trust you and your judgement?

Original thread:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...532#post359532

Thread that turned into more debate on the APTOR/RAPTOR:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=76840

Directly from RT'S site:

Notice how he doesn't know a thing about how the mutation works and expects others to figure it out for themselves.
Quote:
Perhaps we are dealing with two separate recessive genes for eye pigmentation, but this will have to be sorted out over the next few years through test breedings conducted by the people who acquire these new mutations. It is not known at this time if R.A.P.T.O.R. times R.A.P.T.O.R. results in 100% pure R.A.P.T.O.R.s or if you get 50% R.A.P.T.O.R.s and 50% snake-eyed R.A.P.T.O.R.s.
Quote:
Want to produce both RAPTOR and ECLIPSE from the same parents?
Here's four ways that can occur:

Breed a non-albino het for RAPTOR to a non-albino het for RAPTOR.
Breed a non-albino het for RAPTOR to an albino het for RAPTOR.
Breed an ECLIPSE het for albino to a non-albino het for RAPTOR.
Breed an ECLIPSE het for albino to an albino het for RAPTOR.
Notice how he places "Hets" in quotes and that all of the offspring were sired from a single male.
Quote:
All of the geckos offered as "Hets", (R.A.P.T.O.R. gene carriers), were sired by the famous male featured on the cover of Reptiles and also pictured above.
I would be just as disgusted if the Cornsnake community was poisoned by things like this. I provide proof and reasoning, and some individuals shrug and say "RT says it, so we're going to say it too." I've said three times to them what needs to be done to prove out the genetics in the APTOR/RAPTOR (RAPTOR x NORMAL). It seems no one wants to do it, they're just worried about reproducing the RAPTOR to sell them for a high dollar.

Anyway, enough of my rant...Let me here what you all think!
 
Old 03-15-2006, 03:54 AM   #2
diamondlil
sort of in a similar vein, the 'mack snow' and 'super snow' variations? We love the look of the snow, and have the choice of spending over £1000 on a 'mack', or getting a line-bred snow for around £100. As I am not a breeder looking to recoup an investment, we can either get the line-bred version, or wait a couple of years for the market price of the 'mack' version to hopefully reduce as more are bred. It seems to me that the leo world is a bit more money-driven than in corns, and we are just starting to dip our toes in the different morphs. My 5 corns and the christmas I have ordered cost far less than the 1 leo my son really wants, but to me the snow just looks like a spotty version of the Blizzard we have already!
 
Old 03-15-2006, 05:09 AM   #3
TripleMoonsExotic
No, not in any way like the Mack Snow. The Mack Snow is a proven Codom mutation. I also wouldn't expect the mutation to come down in price any time soon. The RAPTOR/APTOR is not proven, is doubtful that it will ever be proven in the near future and yet they are being sold as if they are proven recessive.
 
Old 03-15-2006, 09:33 AM   #4
diamondlil
thanks, that clears that up for us a little
 
Old 03-15-2006, 10:20 AM   #5
Traci1
I don’t really know enough about Leos or genetics (not yet anyway!) to comment on those things specifically, but I don’t like the idea of any one individual being considered “God” of a certain species. If others in the biz/hobby are accepting and following whatever this guy says, whether he is right or wrong, then that’s pretty scary. In the corn snake biz/hobby…we have people who have been working with corn morphs for a very long time, people who are genetics whizzes, some who are veterinarians/vet techs, etc. I respect and admire these folks, and appreciate all of the info they have shared w/ the rest of us over the years. But I would not ever just pick one of those individuals and think that whatever they say and do is right no matter what. It sounds like that is what some of the Leo folks are doing in this case. Scary.
 
Old 03-15-2006, 11:17 AM   #6
Tom Tuttle
Perhaps this thread should be at faunnaclassifieds so Mr Tremper can have reply. I'm certain you'll get replies from people who have experience with Geckos.
 
Old 03-15-2006, 11:57 AM   #7
TripleMoonsExotic
Tremper does not participate in forums or the Leo community in general. Also, as you can see from my original post, it is already up on Fauna.
 
Old 03-15-2006, 11:58 AM   #8
TripleMoonsExotic
I wanted to add...It's not about just geckos. It's about the ethics behind what is going on and the excuses I'm getting.
 
Old 03-15-2006, 12:21 PM   #9
Serpwidgets
I think the issue starts with lack of "standard usage" of the terminology.

For example, everyone considers the mack snows to be proven codominant. In order to prove that a mutant is codominant, there need to be three phenotypes. IIRC there are only two known phenotypes. What has been proven is that mack snow is heritable in a simple fashion but that it is not recessive. What has been proven is that mack snows are heterozygous.

The point I'm making with the above example is that the term "codom" is being used in a situation where it translates into genetic terminology as "heterozygous."

The problems above all stem from the fact that het gets misused, enough that for many it has come to mean "it's carrying a recessive mutant" and does not mean "it is heterozygous." This is where the term "visual het" (which is a nonsense term) comes from and why "codom" then gets used in place of "heterozygous."
 
Old 03-15-2006, 12:41 PM   #10
TripleMoonsExotic
Would you mind me quoting part of your post, Serp? Or would you like to reply to the post yourself? Or would you just like to stay the heck out've it? *lol*
 

Join now to reply to this thread or open new ones for your questions & comments! Cornsnakes.com is the largest online community dedicated to cornsnakes . Registration is open to everyone and FREE. Click Here to Register!

Google
 
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Leopard geckos forum DirtySanchez General Chit-Chat Forum 1 11-09-2005 12:19 PM
leopard geckos herplover General Chit-Chat Forum 2 04-17-2005 02:58 PM
2 female leopard geckos lisa127 General Chit-Chat Forum 1 02-05-2005 09:29 PM
About Leopard Geckos (sorry don't know where else to ask) SerpentsEmbrace Breeding/Egg Production & Care 2 08-20-2003 01:36 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:42 AM.





Fauna Top Sites
 

Powered by vBulletin® Version
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Page generated in 0.03804898 seconds with 10 queries
Copyright Rich Zuchowski/SerpenCo