• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

Testing for Stargazing

Lyion said:
How much does it cost to gentically test? I know you test out morphs by breeding but I wouldn't want to test out stargazing and create more possibly! How do you test them?
Click to expand...

No gene has been isolated. We just know it follows a single gene recessive pattern of transmission. No genetic testing is possible or available.
 
JoannaD said:
Walter the numbers for the het gazer crossing look right but they are not right for the homo gazer according to what I understand from Chuck. According to him with a homo gazer at 7 eggs the per cent is 99.2187 and with 6 eggs it is 98.4375.

Again, if I understand the formula from Chuck correctly this is how it goes.

With a gazer there is a 0.5 chance the egg gets the gazer gene. So 100(0.5^x) , where x is the number of eggs you have, gives you the percent chance that you are getting a false negative result, i.e that your snake fooled the odds and really is carrying the gene. if you then subtract that number from 100 it gives the % that your snake does not carry the gene.

So 0.5^6 X 100 = 1.5625, 100-1.5625=98.4375 or 98.4375% the snake does not carry the gene.

With 7 eggs the equation is 0.5^7=0.7813, 100-.7813=99.2187 or 99.2187% the snake is free of the gazer gene.

With a het gazer the 0.5 changes to 0.75 because 0.75 times the snake will not get the gazer gene.

With that my brain is fried and I need to go clean the kitchen! :awcrap:
Click to expand...

Um, ok................LOL
A little secret, math wasn't my strong point in high school....shhh, don't tell anyone :eek1:

As you can see the numbers you have and what's on the list as far as percentage per number of eggs, isn't too far off.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
That's the spread Joe gave to me Walter. It's definatley worth testing to be sure we don't get this disease way out of cpyrolysis.

I really appreciates everyone contributing to this thread.

In an earlier post someone stated that there are only 20 documented breeders testing. We need that number way up especially with folks pumping SK into every morph. Some big breeders are producing hundreds of SK morphs untested.

Maybe we can get a group that has a certification stating their stock is being tested. Any thoughts from you guys?
 
SG is horrible, really. I completely agree. However, I don't know of a way to test without creating even more. I've not yet bred, (That will likely happen in 13 or 14) but my girl is of very good blood and I have a feeling she isn't SG. I plan to breed for fun, but if any of mine turn out to be SG I'll keep them and refuse to breed them or their parents.
 
Its unfortunate that there aren't that many breeders that test but I know the number has been on the rise since breeders started to loan animals for testing the easier it became to test. I assume most the top end breeders have had the chance for gazer to be shared with them so they test there animals. But along with that note I believe that gazer animals should be controlled, registered, and only giving to reputable people to reduce its spread and keep track of where it is, The hatchlings should be culled when its discovered, and only animals that live should be for testing purposes only and registered. Its important to defend captive bred/all populations of corns the disease Stargazing is the "cancer" of corn snakes and its a war worth fighting.
 
Walter, I'm glad to hear you're going to be testing critters. I was planning on getting 1.1 gazers this year to raise up to test the two I won at Daytona in 2010, but if you clear their parents I wouldn't need to test them.

Nick, if my attempt at gazers from Russel at the source falls through, would you help hook me up with a 1.1 of homozygous gazers?
 
Reptilekyle64 said:
....But along with that note I believe that gazer animals should be controlled, registered, and only giving to reputable people to reduce its spread and keep track of where it is, The hatchlings should be culled when its discovered, and only animals that live should be for testing purposes only and registered. Its important to defend captive bred/all populations of corns the disease Stargazing is the "cancer" of corn snakes and its a war worth fighting.
Click to expand...

Do I think testing stock for Stargazing is important, YES. Am I foolish enough to believe we have any semblance of control, NO. It is in lines other than SK. And "Big" breeders do not test. I'm referring to the breeders that sell to the big box stores that then disseminate those infected strains to the public. Who then just breeds for "fun" and further spreads the gene.
I applaud testing and eliminating SG from as much stock as is possible. The, let's say, 50 breeders that are testing and trying to produce Gazer-free stock are but a drop in the bucket when compared to all the corns produced in any given year. I produce about 1200 hatchlings a year. Add to that Walter's 1200, Joe P's and any other breeder that is testing and you haven't even made a dent in what gets sold by the "Big" breeders who aren't testing.
And some of those guys are big names in the business too. The animals are seen as a profit margin not a sentient creature. If it eats or spins makes no difference to them once it is sold. Corns have always been the poor serpent relation in the pet industry. They are easy to handle and care for and breed easily too. Any moron can put two animals together and produce more. And they do so at an alarming rate.
So we can test but it sure feels a lot like herding cats to me.

Terri
 
Joe says it's not specifically a sunkissed issue. Do we need to test all of our stock? Is SG simple recessive? Can it be "bred out" or will it keep popping up here and there forever? And if we test ALL of our stock, what are we supposed to do with all of the stock that then carries the SG gene?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
dave partington said:
Joe says it's not specifically a sunkissed issue. Do we need to test all of our stock? Is SG simple recessive? Can it be "bred out" or will it keep popping up here and there forever? And if we test ALL of our stock, what are we supposed to do with all of the stock that then carries the SG gene?
Click to expand...

Probably just sit around and take up space....;)
 
If you want I should produce het gazers atleast. If any of my stock proves positive for gazer I can get you a pair of homos. The shipping will be on your cost though. I will keep you posted.
 
Testing

Although trying to test is a great idea. I have bred Homo animals to 100% Het animals with the same gene and never produced any Homo animals for that gene in the same clutch. So how are the animals deemed s/g free with the breedings?
 
Dave Partington says:

Joe says it's not specifically a sunkissed issue. I think that has been generally accepted. Do we need to test all of our stock? Is SG simple recessive? Can it be "bred out" or will it keep popping up here and there forever? I don't have the inclination to do that... And if we test ALL of our stock, what are we supposed to do with all of the stock that then carries the SG gene? Euth them?? There are no comfortable, easy answers here...
 
Last edited:
crackerhead said:
Do I think testing stock for Stargazing is important, YES. Am I foolish enough to believe we have any semblance of control, NO. It is in lines other than SK. And "Big" breeders do not test. I'm referring to the breeders that sell to the big box stores that then disseminate those infected strains to the public. Who then just breeds for "fun" and further spreads the gene.
I applaud testing and eliminating SG from as much stock as is possible. The, let's say, 50 breeders that are testing and trying to produce Gazer-free stock are but a drop in the bucket when compared to all the corns produced in any given year. I produce about 1200 hatchlings a year. Add to that Walter's 1200, Joe P's and any other breeder that is testing and you haven't even made a dent in what gets sold by the "Big" breeders who aren't testing.
And some of those guys are big names in the business too. The animals are seen as a profit margin not a sentient creature. If it eats or spins makes no difference to them once it is sold. Corns have always been the poor serpent relation in the pet industry. They are easy to handle and care for and breed easily too. Any moron can put two animals together and produce more. And they do so at an alarming rate.
So we can test but it sure feels a lot like herding cats to me.

Terri
Click to expand...

That sums it up rather nicely.

At this point there is no stopping the tide, it's drop in the bucket damage control at best. To think it can ever be fully eradicated is folly.

The Gazer horse has left the barn, bred with everything on it's cross country dash, before you could even throw a rope at it.
 
OK, Joe says SG is possibly in every line. For snakes bought in the US after SK was being combined with other morphs in breeding projects I'll accept that, but I will assert with 99% probability that my British bred snow, anery, amel, normal etc won't have been anywhere near anything carrying gazer, because when they were bred SK was such a sexy new morph that them being even possibly het would have put them out of the price range I could pay for my snakes when I was starting my collection. My old school bloods from Vinman have good enough provenance that I'll also lay down a totally minimal chance of them having anything in their background he doesn't know about. The upper keys, stripes, ghostblood, motley, blood that I got directly from British breeders also would have carried a premium price if they'd been part of SK morph breedings.
By starting my collection with snakes too cheap to carry any SK genes, before it would have been present in any quantity at all over here I am totally convinced my lines don't carry gazer at all.
 
The het and homo gazers can be donated to others for testing. Or euthanize them. I am in need of twenty homo gazer females.
 
Its pretty funny seeing how many people actually think that its completely out of our control and and blaming others that its there fault, Guess what you would be on the floor regretting and weeping when gazer pops up in any of your stocks. Like really I am blown away by the people who believe its uncontrollable cause. And saying its like trying to herd cats what crazy kind of comparison is that to a recessive disease in corn snakes...
 
Reptilekyle64 said:
Its pretty funny seeing how many people actually think that its completely out of our control and and blaming others that its there fault, Guess what you would be on the floor regretting and weeping when gazer pops up in any of your stocks. Like really I am blown away by the people who believe its uncontrollable cause. And saying its like trying to herd cats what crazy kind of comparison is that to a recessive disease in corn snakes...
Click to expand...

I know the person who compared controlling the gazer gene to herding cats, and I would bet my left butt cheek that she has FORGOTTEN more about genetics that you have EVER known.
Just like hybridization being a horse out of the barn and never knowing for certain if your amel is a pure corn, the gazer gene is out there and no matter what we do it is out there to stay.
Except unlike hybridization, if your snake is a gazer you know it.
 
Reptilekyle64 said:
Its pretty funny seeing how many people actually think that its completely out of our control and and blaming others that its there fault, Guess what you would be on the floor regretting and weeping when gazer pops up in any of your stocks. Like really I am blown away by the people who believe its uncontrollable cause. And saying its like trying to herd cats what crazy kind of comparison is that to a recessive disease in corn snakes...
Click to expand...

Let me hear your method of control then.

How will you cleanse the entire corn population of the gazer gene, or potential to carry the gazer gene? I'm all ears.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top