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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

Purist Breeders
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:40 AM   #21
starsevol
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMong View Post
DING!-DING!-DING!..............GOOD EVENING LADIES AND GENTLEMAN from the Bellagio Hotel and Casinooooo!!!!!

LLLLEETS get RRRREADY TOOOO RRRRUMMMBLEEE!!!!!!

and in THIS cornerrrrr..............the obsessed hybridizer wearing the cornsnake x thayeri x Cal. king x Imperial Pueblacorn x Hondo prrrrint trunks!!!

AAAAAND in THIS cornerrr............the logical anti-hybrid advocate representing the well-being of the herpetoculture wearing the pure WHITE trunks!






HAHAAA!!!!
You teh awesome
 
Old 02-06-2013, 09:25 AM   #22
Carpe Serpentis
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMong View Post
DING!-DING!-DING!..............GOOD EVENING LADIES AND GENTLEMAN from the Bellagio Hotel and Casinooooo!!!!!

LLLLEETS get RRRREADY TOOOO RRRRUMMMBLEEE!!!!!!

and in THIS cornerrrrr..............the obsessed hybridizer wearing the cornsnake x thayeri x Cal. king x Imperial Pueblacorn x Hondo prrrrint trunks!!!

AAAAAND in THIS cornerrr............the logical anti-hybrid advocate representing the well-being of the herpetoculture wearing the pure WHITE trunks!






HAHAAA!!!!
Those that have no point or logical ability to refute... i.e. facts... often resort to denigrating the person in order to undermine their point. The problem is attacking the character of a person is easily seen by others as simply being crass and uncooth. Your better than that Dmong.

I am looking through the information history, etc. sections that Nanci listed and while it does seem some of the morphs had at least a portion of their ancestors traced back to wild caught... it does leave much unanswered. My reason for asking how many lines of morphs can be traced back to wild caught without interruption is simply to see if there was any possibility of breeding known lines free of impure genes with any real certainty. I would have thought that with so many purists on this forum that a few more would have spoken up and stated that they have lines where the lineages of all their snakes in that line and morph can be traced back to their natural origins. This would apparently be a great selling point as many would love to have a lavender sunkissed corn where all the ancestors could be traced back to wild caught snakes. The sad fact is, not too many seem to be keen to share this information with the general public here and if it is available elsewhere... I will continue to search as not too many seem eager to share that they have such lines with morphs that all of the ancestors thereof can be traced back to wild caught origins. To me, this speaks volumes. If I had such lines I would be jumping at the chance to let others know I had them and it would be no secret, but something I would proudly shout from the roof tops. When buyers have to research to find morphs with such a lineage.... many will simply give up and buy corn snakes from their local pet store or any old breeder that may very well have introduced hybrid genes as no lineage going back to wild caught is to be found. The fact that the registry has not been around all that long does not excuse a purist from keeping accurate records going back to the wild. Allowing unknowns to creep into ones pure corn snakes, as a purist, is simply inviting hybrids into the gene pool which is what I thought made purists so unique. The purists were the few, the proud, those that cared about the integrity of their lines.... and yet I find one breeder who will proudly share her lines and no others.... It makes me go.... hmmmm.

As for the comment, Who is Nancy? If you honestly don't recognize a typo when you see it or can't infer that I mean Nanci, the one I've been thanking throughout this thread....

I get the strong feeling that accurate lineages are not too often kept by morph breeders by Airenlows comment as well.... you don't have to read too much into it as its about as plain as a chainsaw buzzing in your face.

Bottom line, if you want to claim you have pure snakes then you have to be able to trace the lineage of all your snakes back to wild caught in your lineage. If you can't do this or won't share this.... then that puts your pure snakes in question. I am beginning to understand why breeders may not want to dna test to prove parentage now.....

I like to see things from all sides and when one side does not supply the evidence I am left thinking many may be hypocrites. Surely, even if you don't have morph lines where all the ancestors can be traced back to the wild somone here must know where to get them if they exist and they are serious about keeping their gene pool pure. Now, if a certain amount of uncertainty is okay with purists then what is that % of uncertainty/impurity? I would genuinely like the answers to these questions and when they are skirted by statements such as do your homework or lets get ready to rumble we are just allowing what should be a caring intelligent sharing of information and opinions to go to pieces.

Be proud if you have pure species morphs where the entire lineage can be traced back to the wild and share them here on this thread. That is all I am asking.

I'm not asking to rumble, poke fun of, or for anyone to do any homework. I'm asking for those that are proud of their line of morphs with a proven lineage where all members can be traced back to the wild to post here so that others also interested in knowing where to attain these elusive pure corn morphs can also attain them. This is helping everyone out. The debassing another is doing nothing to help. You've made your point Dmong, you don't like me. Starsevol, it is also blatantly clear how you feel about me. I forgive you all. I would still like answers to these questions.
 
Old 02-06-2013, 09:31 AM   #23
Carpe Serpentis
Quote:
Originally Posted by starsevol View Post
You teh awesome
Let me ask this another way so that it is more personal.
Starsevol, do you have any pure corn snake morphs that the entire lineage can be traced back to wild caught and are you willing to share that lineage with your customers?

Is there a degree of uncertanty in some of your lines? Meaning, are there some lines you can not trace back all of the members to wild caught?
If so, what is the degree/% of uncertainty in those lines?
 
Old 02-06-2013, 09:45 AM   #24
airenlow
I'm keeping my collection as pure as it was when I entered the hobby. Does that make any sense? All we can do at this point is not make things worse.

It's not that we won't take the time to trace our critters' family trees...it's just impossible to go back to WC animals. My Lava Okeetees would probably be the easiest to trace, but even they are ph Amel Anery Lav Stripe. So, obviously crossed into hobby corns a few times.
 
Old 02-06-2013, 10:29 AM   #25
Carpe Serpentis
Quote:
Originally Posted by airenlow View Post
I'm keeping my collection as pure as it was when I entered the hobby. Does that make any sense? All we can do at this point is not make things worse.

It's not that we won't take the time to trace our critters' family trees...it's just impossible to go back to WC animals. My Lava Okeetees would probably be the easiest to trace, but even they are ph Amel Anery Lav Stripe. So, obviously crossed into hobby corns a few times.
I get where your coming at with your first two sentences, but I'm not sure it makes sense. The problem that I see is that if your line was purer than anothers line and you bred to their line that also had the same philosophy then you may still pollute your line further. For that matter, your lines may be completely pure and just of uncertain origin/records at one point. Its just uncertain the way I understand it.

Your second statement, "It's not that we won't take the time to trace our critters' family trees" needs clarification. I believe that what your trying to say is that the records were not kept so well at one point in the hobby. This makes it an impossibility to undo what is done in the past or create a lineage that is accurate now. If records were kept of lineages from the start then there would be a way to trace lineages all the way back to wild caught for everyone who did so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by airenlow View Post
You're not going to find many morphs that trace back. Once a critter is crossed into morphs, all heck breaks loose...
If we take the above facts to be self evident... The unlikelihood of finding morphs that can be traced back leads one to assume that perhaps the best way of finding one that can be traced back is to ask the breeders which I have been doing in this thread... repeatedly....
Thank you for being honest and not trying to shove off the facts as a need to do homework or otherwise trying to attack my character or fill this thread up with dribble designed to take away from the real importance of this thread, which I personally see as this at the very least:
1. Many love pure species
2. Many would love to know where to get pure species and pure species morphs alike.
3. If breeders don't come forward with this information or skirt the issue when it is addressed people will continue to inadvertently muddle the gene pool more. Accurate records of lineages are a must for any purist as is the sharing of the most accurate records possible with buyers which is why I applaud the efforts of the registry and those involved in it.
.
 
Old 02-06-2013, 10:58 AM   #26
airenlow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe Serpentis View Post
My point for all of this is to ask, how many serious breeders can trace the lineage of all their snakes all the way back to wild caught origins?
ZERO, but crossing them willy-nilly into every other species probably isn't the answer either...
 
Old 02-06-2013, 11:15 AM   #27
BloodyBaroness
Quote:
Originally Posted by airenlow View Post
ZERO, but crossing them willy-nilly into every other species probably isn't the answer either...
Josh is right. Exactly zero.

Even the simple morphs like caramel and amel get muddy fast if you start trying to trace them all the back to the first wild caught example.

The only exception is some of the wild caught locality stuff like the Alabama, Keys, or area specific corns.
 
Old 02-06-2013, 11:31 AM   #28
Carpe Serpentis
Quote:
Originally Posted by airenlow View Post
ZERO, but crossing them willy-nilly into every other species probably isn't the answer either...
If a purist keeps records and only accepts snakes of known pedigrees into his collection then it is impossible to introduce unknowns from the starting point of the other persons lineage that he/she is introducing.

In a nutshell, if we grandfather in all corn snakes that look like corn snakes and started today with that and kept records from today onwards... there would be no further problems of unknown origin or uncertainty stemming from future breedings. The only problems that could arise would be those from the snakes that were already grandfathered in.

Crossing snakes willy-nilly will never influence a breeder who keeps accurate pedigrees and demands the same of those others whom he/she would acquire snakes from. The problem of uncertain purity most surely almost always arises from a purist that accepts a snake of unknown and uncertain lineage into his/her breeding pool. When in doubt, chuck it out or grandfather it in based on some sound reasoning.... i.e. it has a pedigree going back 7 generations with no indication of hybrids showing up in its progeny, siblings, etc. Another option of course would be to dilute out the hybrid genes by breeding morphs of uncertain pedigrees back to wild caught pure specimens for 7 generations giving you virtually pure guarantee percentage wise anyways.
 
Old 02-06-2013, 12:55 PM   #29
airenlow
How did you come up with 7 generations? And 10 round mags?
 
Old 02-06-2013, 12:58 PM   #30
DMong
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe Serpentis View Post
Those that have no point or logical ability to refute... i.e. facts... often resort to denigrating the person in order to undermine their point. The problem is attacking the character of a person is easily seen by others as simply being crass and uncooth. Your better than that Dmong.

I am looking through the information history, etc. sections that Nanci listed and while it does seem some of the morphs had at least a portion of their ancestors traced back to wild caught... it does leave much unanswered. My reason for asking how many lines of morphs can be traced back to wild caught without interruption is simply to see if there was any possibility of breeding known lines free of impure genes with any real certainty. I would have thought that with so many purists on this forum that a few more would have spoken up and stated that they have lines where the lineages of all their snakes in that line and morph can be traced back to their natural origins. This would apparently be a great selling point as many would love to have a lavender sunkissed corn where all the ancestors could be traced back to wild caught snakes. The sad fact is, not too many seem to be keen to share this information with the general public here and if it is available elsewhere... I will continue to search as not too many seem eager to share that they have such lines with morphs that all of the ancestors thereof can be traced back to wild caught origins. To me, this speaks volumes. If I had such lines I would be jumping at the chance to let others know I had them and it would be no secret, but something I would proudly shout from the roof tops. When buyers have to research to find morphs with such a lineage.... many will simply give up and buy corn snakes from their local pet store or any old breeder that may very well have introduced hybrid genes as no lineage going back to wild caught is to be found. The fact that the registry has not been around all that long does not excuse a purist from keeping accurate records going back to the wild. Allowing unknowns to creep into ones pure corn snakes, as a purist, is simply inviting hybrids into the gene pool which is what I thought made purists so unique. The purists were the few, the proud, those that cared about the integrity of their lines.... and yet I find one breeder who will proudly share her lines and no others.... It makes me go.... hmmmm.

As for the comment, Who is Nancy? If you honestly don't recognize a typo when you see it or can't infer that I mean Nanci, the one I've been thanking throughout this thread....

I get the strong feeling that accurate lineages are not too often kept by morph breeders by Airenlows comment as well.... you don't have to read too much into it as its about as plain as a chainsaw buzzing in your face.

Bottom line, if you want to claim you have pure snakes then you have to be able to trace the lineage of all your snakes back to wild caught in your lineage. If you can't do this or won't share this.... then that puts your pure snakes in question. I am beginning to understand why breeders may not want to dna test to prove parentage now.....

I like to see things from all sides and when one side does not supply the evidence I am left thinking many may be hypocrites. Surely, even if you don't have morph lines where all the ancestors can be traced back to the wild somone here must know where to get them if they exist and they are serious about keeping their gene pool pure. Now, if a certain amount of uncertainty is okay with purists then what is that % of uncertainty/impurity? I would genuinely like the answers to these questions and when they are skirted by statements such as do your homework or lets get ready to rumble we are just allowing what should be a caring intelligent sharing of information and opinions to go to pieces.

Be proud if you have pure species morphs where the entire lineage can be traced back to the wild and share them here on this thread. That is all I am asking.

I'm not asking to rumble, poke fun of, or for anyone to do any homework. I'm asking for those that are proud of their line of morphs with a proven lineage where all members can be traced back to the wild to post here so that others also interested in knowing where to attain these elusive pure corn morphs can also attain them. This is helping everyone out. The debassing another is doing nothing to help. You've made your point Dmong, you don't like me. Starsevol, it is also blatantly clear how you feel about me. I forgive you all. I would still like answers to these questions.

I have plenty of logical ability, points and facts that I have presented here and many other places. I also have a good sense of humor that I applied when I saw exactly what was going on here again.

But in any case, yes.....I have a fair number of snakes that are wild-collected themselves, and several corns that are 100% locale-specific to the very palm trees they were collected in, and are plotted on google earth. I also know where to acquire some very special things (corns, kings, milksnakes, ratsnakes, etc...) that I keep much more private about. This is because if just any typical "John Q. Public" acquired these types, they would likely be no different than most of the others and instantly become a typical hobby snake of unknown lineage (or far worse....the notorious "H" word). I also have a good number of "hobby" snakes too, and I know the differences and breed accordingly.


~Doug
 

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