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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

hybrids vs. nonhybrids
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Old 12-18-2008, 03:32 PM   #71
starsevol
Yeah, I know, ground walnut shell is sharp and abrasive on skin. And it is prone to molding. And maybe some farmers wouldn't use it near their horses due to it's toxic properties, but snakes are not horses! Those are no reasons to stop using ground walnut shell as a substrate! Pet shops know best, right? I mean, why switch to something else when there have been no specific studies pertaining to snakes.

And aspen or newspaper are SO expensive and hard to obtain....so why bother?

 
Old 12-18-2008, 03:59 PM   #72
tyflier
Midnight...use whatever substrate you wanna use. It matters very little to me. Personally...I wouldn't want to crawl on my belly on ground walnut shells regardless of toxicity levels. It simply doesn't look comfortable to me. But...I don't use aspen, either. I use shredded coconut fiber because it is soft, it is ultr-absorbant, and it contains natural tannins to reduce bacterial growth...no molds. So use whatever you like...but remember...

There was a time when Pine was considered the "perfect" substrate. It wasn't until people stopped using it, and the lifespan of the animals increased, that they decided to check out what was going on. You know what they found out? Not only does the high dust levels lead to more frequent URI's, but it also contains turpines. You what those are? They are the chemicals used to manufacture turpentine. Yea...deadly. But people used it for YEARS "without any problems".

There are two boats afloat on this ocean.

In one boat you have the "don't fix it if it ain't broken" club. These people stand by what has worked for them in the past becasue they "never had any issues". These people usually wait until one of their own animals succumbs to whatever the risk was before making any changes.

In the other boat you have the "benefits do not outweigh the risks" club. These people have heard a few bad reports on particular things, and rather than taking a chance with their own animals, they change to use something that has been shown to pose fewer risks. These people don't wait for something bad to happen before they make changes.

And yes...there is data. Maybe not scientifically collected data, but you have right here at your fingertips, probably close to a thousand years of personal experiences with probably close to a million snakes in captivity, and just about every variable you can imagine. Certainly, some have successes where others have failures. But all of the "research" and "data collection" can be found in these pages through personal experiences, "What do I do?" threads, and "What went wrong?" threads.

As far as the whole Jungle Corn thing goes...it's a trade name. It is what it is. People use it and like it, and I doubt it will change.

I am of the opinion that a person that looks at a Jungle Corn and does not know that it is not a pure corn...probably doesn't care. I've never seen one that looks like a pure corn. Same for Pueblacorns, Sinacorns, Super Corns, and Turbo Corns. Creamsicles and Rootbeers look too close for my blood, but...it isn't my call to make.

Ultimately...it's labled for saleability, not to satisfy every potential question. *Most* people with even SOME experience in either kings or corns would recognize 99% of Jungle Corns for what they are...inter-genus hybrids. They may not know exactly what the combination is, but they would recignize it as "something different", and most likely be inclined to ask before paying for it.

I still place the blame on you for that one...sorry, but that's my opinion.
 
Old 12-18-2008, 04:01 PM   #73
Kokopelli
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnght View Post
You don't have to like what I use for substrate heck, you'll be even more upset to know it's a blend. 15 lbs calci sand mixed into 50 lbs ground english walnut shell.

The lives of my snakes are quite good and healthy you cna get as upset as you wish but still as things are perhaps a step back shoudl be taken to see what i'm doing right and see if that's why so called bad substrate or disliked is working?

15 years is a long life never had a regurge, never had shed issues, never had disease, never had them not want to eat, the list goes on.

Can you honestly say the same?

If what I use doesn't work for you well that's fine. But it works for me and to say the lives of my snakes are not good is rather insulting don't you think?

I'm sure you're not trying to be and just trying to be helpful. But while being helpful you're making it very much yours and their way is best and that's clearly not the case or iId be doing it that way. }:>)
To this I must reply with a quote made by Benjamin Franklin- "Experience is a dear teacher, but fools will learn at no other"

The fact that your snake did not die yet doesn't mean that you have the right angle on things or can see the full picture. No living person can single handedly dictate absolute truths. You're a fracture of the general populace of snake keepers- and quite a few of their experiences negate yours.
I have a friend who has kept dogs for the better part of 16 years now. No dog ever died under his care- but he never vaccinated his dogs? Does this mean vaccinations are a fraud? or unnecessary? No, it simply means he was lucky. That's it.

Currently you insist on providing less than optimal conditions to your snake because you're stubborn. Ego has no part here, the goal of everyone here is to keep their snakes to the best of their capabilities. The benefit from being a part of a group is that you can learn from other people's mistakes and from more experienced keepers.

The fact that you insist on a certain path even though you know for a fact that most keepers would disagree with simply means you value your ego more than your snakes. And that's a shame.

Such substrate tends to remain moist(moist substrate is a good recipe for scale rot), can house bacteria and parasites with greater ease and is probably more expansive than the alternative.

I am not trying to flame you here- if you insist on being a "non-conformist" that's fine. Just do it at your expanse rather than your animals
 
Old 12-18-2008, 07:07 PM   #74
reptile_jones
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyflier View Post
Midnight...
Ultimately...it's labled for saleability, not to satisfy every potential question. *Most* people with even SOME experience in either kings or corns would recognize 99% of Jungle Corns for what they are...inter-genus hybrids. They may not know exactly what the combination is, but they would recignize it as "something different", and most likely be inclined to ask before paying for it.
I still place the blame on you for that one...sorry, but that's my opinion.
That is what i was thinking. Why is it always the seller to blame? Seeing all the color morphs is the fun part of owning corn so when i see something new on a breeder's table i ask about it. I remember the first time I seen a lava corn. I never heard of it before that time so I asked about it. If the breeder told you it was a pure corn and then you found out that it was not. Then yes the breeder is a fault. I say that Midnght you are a lest 50% at fault for not doing your home work or at lest asking more about it.
 
Old 12-18-2008, 07:15 PM   #75
KJUN
Quote:
Originally Posted by reptile_jones View Post
I say that Midnght you are a lest 50% at fault for not doing your home work or at lest asking more about it.
If s/he KNEW hybrid corns existed, then I agree s/he should have asked. However, if the buyer is an OBVIOUS newbie (and you can usually ID them a mile a way if you are an experienced seller), then I DO believe the buyer has the responsibility to notify the beginner when they are buying a hybrid. I believe being a hybridizer comes with the responsibility to represent them honestly and to do everything in their power to make sure their customers do so, too.

KJ
 
Old 12-18-2008, 07:23 PM   #76
TandJ
I might be wrong, but I believe walnut is one of those hard woods that can cause some serious respitory problems in humans, for different reasons than pine..


Here I did a quick search , the focus is on the wood working industry as a whole...

http://employment.alberta.ca/documen...-PUB_ch045.pdf

Regards.. Tim of T and J
 
Old 12-18-2008, 07:50 PM   #77
reptile_jones
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJUN View Post
If s/he KNEW hybrid corns existed, then I agree s/he should have asked. However, if the buyer is an OBVIOUS newbie (and you can usually ID them a mile a way if you are an experienced seller), then I DO believe the buyer has the responsibility to notify the beginner when they are buying a hybrid. I believe being a hybridizer comes with the responsibility to represent them honestly and to do everything in their power to make sure their customers do so, too.

KJ

I see your point and would have to agree. This next year will be my first time breeding hybird's and all babies will be labeled as such. (corn X emoryi)
 
Old 12-18-2008, 08:34 PM   #78
ForkedTung
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJUN View Post
If s/he KNEW hybrid corns existed, then I agree s/he should have asked. However, if the buyer is an OBVIOUS newbie (and you can usually ID them a mile a way if you are an experienced seller), then I DO believe the buyer has the responsibility to notify the beginner when they are buying a hybrid. I believe being a hybridizer comes with the responsibility to represent them honestly and to do everything in their power to make sure their customers do so, too.

KJ
I agree, How are you supposed to know what questions to ask when you don't know what questions to ask? Regardless of how anyone feels about it, it's unfortunate but I don't think that most americans research their purchases, it's usually a buy first ask questions later consumer culture.
Like KJUN pointed out earlier a jungle corn is NOT a cornsnake, and should NEVER be labelled as one.

How hard is this:

"OOOH that's pretty what is that?"
" Well that's what some people call a jungle corn, but it's actually a hybrid?"
painless.
 
Old 12-18-2008, 08:45 PM   #79
endrin
Well being in the altered state im in right now I think if your a purist thats just super and if you like hybrids rock on! Myself i got LOTS of things im crossing this season, why you ask because its there to be done, i want to see wth will pop out and fear not i SHALL label them as hybrids. luckily i have most sold already, thats IF the breed at all! rest assured if all goes well i will be posting some pic!
 
Old 12-19-2008, 01:24 AM   #80
tyflier
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForkedTung View Post
...How hard is this:

"OOOH that's pretty what is that?"
" Well that's what some people call a jungle corn, but it's actually a hybrid?"
painless.
That wouldn't be hard at all. See a snake, you have no idea what it is...you ask. Midnight simply didn't ask...
 

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