Tubs and snakes and pets, oh my...

:wavey: Hey-lo everyone, I don't post very often (in fact, hardly at all - I gain more joy from just reading about all the topics than joining in, boring as it is), but I have a question that I don't think can be answered too well in a book and hasn't been specifically answered on this forum that I've seen, and who better to ask than you guys?
So here goes: I'm thinking of breeding corn snakes one day, "one day" being the operative phrase. I admit that I've had daydreams about just HUGE quantities of snakes being in my possession - racks and racks and racks of them. My question about all this is: Do you (meaning, "people who have what most would consider a large amount of snakes") find that you no longer care for snakes as individuals? Is it possible to keep large numbers of snakes and care for (in the way that people care for cherished pets) them all? Do you ever remember crossing a line, a line where on one side, snakes were pets, and on the other, they became breeding tools? I know that snakes do not have emotions like jealousy, loneliness, etc. - I can accept that. However (and I may be TOTALLY off-base with this), it would seem to me that keeping snakes in tubs might be akin to having rows and rows of stalls filled with racehorses, or lines of sows suckling piglets: you (again, this very well might be wrong) might stop thinking of them as creatures and start thinking of them as just running machines or walking bacon - or, in this case, slithering genes, where the genes they carry become more important to you than the actual animal.
This is kind of vague, I know, but any input would be VERY appreciated, as this entire topic has been bothering me for awhile. It's not that I think it's cruel to house snakes in plastic tubs...they're snakes, they like small places...it's the attitude of their keeper, and whether/how/in what way that attitude changes with the step from having "Slither the Pet" to "Number 588090, Coral Snow, Thrice Proven Breeder Female" that makes me wonder.

I guess I'm first

Legato-Miko said:

Do you find that you no longer care for snakes as individuals?

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I can't say that I've ever seen reptiles as "pets". This isn't really due to quantity as much as quality. Because of their housing and behavior, they don't enjoy roaming privileges like dogs or cats. In captivity, reptiles are something to be "observed" as opposed to "played with". They give us the opportunity to interact with nature. With that said, I must admit that having a large collection is fascinating.

The hobby side: I’ve got numerous species as opposed to a "gene farm" of corns. Several are native species that I can observe in captivity, then walk outside and observe them in their natural habitat. I see breeding more as a behavioral process that teaches me a lot about the life cycle of the animals I keep.

The business side: Some I will hold onto and others I will sell. That part of the hobby depends on what my objectives are at the time. Those objectives change from year to year. Projects that interest me change. Example: I'm currently working with several corn specimens that I'm breeding for size versus color. I have several animals that are no longer needed for that project and I have sold them off. A few were high-end morphs that I sold for a loss. In short, I‘m not in this for the money but the love of the hobby.

Legato-Miko said:

Is it possible to keep large numbers of snakes and care for (in the way that people care for cherished pets) them all?

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I think so. I've got several animals that I have invested a lot of time and effort in and hold them in high regards. The one thing that you must accept when you acquire a large collection is that some animals will die. Not everyone snake is destined to reach adulthood and that is a fact. You can't save them all so decisions must be made. That is the reality of collecting living creatures

Legato-Miko said:

Do you ever remember crossing a line, a line where on one side, snakes were pets, and on the other, they became breeding tools?

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Not so much seeing a line in the sand as far as breeding, but there is a point in which a collection becomes a lot of work and will no longer be just a hobby. Only you will be able to decide where that line is. For some it may be 10 animals and for others it may be 1000. Once you cross it though, you will loose some of your passion. This is what normally pushes many out of the hobby IMO.

I hope that helps. Good luck!

Very good question.

I must admit, I don't feel the same towards the snakes I have now as I did when I only had one.
There are a few that are special to me but I don't have the same amount of time to handle or just admire each one individually.
It's a hobby for me that has grown beyond simple pet ownership. I certainly don't make money on them, if I were to count my time and expense, I'm sure I'd be in the red.
The only comparison I can come up with is it's like the difference in raising one child of your own as to teaching children in school or other large groups. You still respect each as an individual but you're just not as intimate with each.
The nice thing about snakes is that most would rather be left alone anyway. Feed me, water me, clean me then go AWAY!

This is my first season breeding, by myself. I have 4 pairs and love them to death. The babies are excellent aswel. I dont see my self haveing anyother animals except for repiles. I treat my snakes like I would a cat or a dog, like pets. I have a small buisness right now but who knows it might become full-time. I work for a living as a chef. That and having snakes are my pashions in life. Some make breeding their life but Im a little different. My girlfriend has three kids which take up a lot of time aswel. So with taking care of my snakes (breeding), working 6 days a week, and taking care of a family thats my life and my pashions.

I went from owning one snake, whom I loved to death, and I think rather enjoyed being handled, to owning none, and then up to owning 5 of them. Now, since all but one of them are still babies, I'm not thinking of breeding for a few years yet, but I must say that owning five is very different from owning one. With taking care of them, working and going to school both full time, and training for a marathon, it leaves very little time to just handle them and socialize them. All of the babies are still very against being held just because I haven't had the time to sit down and get them used to me. Now, this is with only five, and as them being only pets. I can't imagine what having 100's of them could be like. Heck, I have a hard time keeping track of five names (wouldn't remember them unless I'd written them down in my signature ), and I think it would be difficult, for me at least, to get dozens more snakes and be able to give them all that special "pet" treatment.

I currently have 4. There definately pets to me. Though i've gone from handling them on a daily bases, except after feeding and in blue fase, to once in a few days. I hope to breed them in the future. I also intent to buy a yearling or adult as soon as i have some money saved up. They get really spoiled with big vivs and lost's of stuff in their vivs
I probably won't have to many snakes where i live now. I don't have the room. But next time i move i will definately get a house with one or 2 spare rooms. No way i put them in a rack system. I totally agree with you on the "rows of stalls filled with racehorses, or lines of sows suckling piglets" bit. Even though that does mean i won't have as many snakes i would like to have.

Jicin said:

No way i put them in a rack system. I totally agree with you on the "rows of stalls filled with racehorses, or lines of sows suckling piglets" bit.

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Jicin, this is exactly what everyone is trying to tell you over on the Hatchling Housing thread. Do you just not understand how statements like this come across?? I don't get what you're trying to accomplish here.

Look at it this way:
Without the stalls of race horses we have NO horse races!
Without the lines of sows and piglets we have NO bacon, ham, etc..etc..

You can't have it both ways, keeping a snake in any size container is not natural. If you critisize for keeping in a none natural state and you keep any at all then you are a hypocrite. I stand by my methods of husbandry.

mmmm.....bacon.....

LOL! mmmm....Corn Snakes.....

Leave me alone CAV. It's my opinion. Can't you have it someone disagrees with you?

Jicin, CAV isn't picking on you. He's pointing out that your comments sometimes sound very demeaning to people. Its all right not to agree with how he or any other big breeder or collector does things, but there are ways to say it without condemning them. I'm sure CAV doesn't care one way or the other whether someone disagrees with him, but he doesn't want to be talked down to because of it. It's just like you--You don't want to be talked down to either. He is just pointing out that there could be better ways to phrase things without sounding very mean about it.

I'm not picking on you Jicin. A dozen members have all said the same thing to you but it just doesn't seem to register......unbelievable.

It's unbelievable that someone may not have an opinion. I don't care other people think rack systems are good. I don't think so. And i may very well say so. He asked for advice and i gave it. It's not like i tell people to feed their snakes roasted beef or something harmfull. Just because YOU don't agree with me i am forbidden to vouche for more space. Just leave me ALONE

Register that

Well, it's interesting...

To hear everyone's different views on this, I will say that. Thank you to everyone who's contributed! It's very intriguing, to me at least, to hear from those who have more snakes than I do on such a delicate issue.
Oh, and (not that this matters too much), but I don't agree with the way racing is done, so I would probably rejoice if there were no horse races, and I'm a vegetarian. Guess I could have picked better analogies, hmm? They were all I could think of at the time, as I was really unsure of how to go about expressing my concerns/question...

Jicin said:

It's unbelievable that someone may not have an opinion.

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It's not that people around here can't tolerate differing opinions, it's just that your opinions are so judgemental & condemning.

Lighten up and enjoy your hobby

Not more then yours.

its like almost every time you post it stings a member. Jicin just be a little less aggressive and leave space for other peoples opinions to coexist with yours. I have enjoyed a number of your posts but sometimes I read what you write and it can make me a little aprehensive about posting my own opinions and questions, for fear of you telling me i have no business owning a snake. Its like I value your opinions of snakes, I fear your opinions of me haha

Not so much seeing a line in the sand as far as breeding, but there is a point in which a collection becomes a lot of work and will no longer be just a hobby. Only you will be able to decide where that line is. For some it may be 10 animals and for others it may be 1000. Once you cross it though, you will loose some of your passion. This is what normally pushes many out of the hobby IMO.

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Great advice.. It's something I have been pondering also. Thanks