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Natural History/Field Observation Field observations of corn snakes, field collecting, or just general topics about the natural environment they are found in.

Captivity?
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Old 02-12-2005, 05:07 PM   #31
JTGoff69
Just ever so slightly off topic, and I do not want to get into the debate either way, (though I do have faith in the Creation theory) but a question I have been pondering:

Why do some species of snakes have fangs and use venom to kill their prey, while others who eat the same prey snatch and constrict? Other than expending a little more energy, or starting the digesting process as some venoms do, I don't see the need except for defense purposes. And if that is the case, wouldn't you think all snakes would need venom? Just one of those little things that make me go ?hmmmmm? while you all are debating evolution/creation/adaptation, and purely a thought not meant to debunk anyone's personal feelings. Thoughts???
 
Old 02-12-2005, 05:19 PM   #32
Santa
TrpnBils, You are such a hipocrit. Read what you wrote!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrpnBils
If you want to get into personal attacks or talk about how I at least have a background in what I'm saying, email me at jrh312@psu.edu and we'll do that there. This is not the place for it.
.......
As far as the monkey comment. Nobody ever said "descended from a monkey" except for you.

Real nice, idiot! Now THAT was a personal attack - learn to recognize it! With your personality you will hear it again.

P.S. You failed to mention the name of the "new species" created in the lab by Dr. Miller - because it never happened.
 
Old 02-12-2005, 05:50 PM   #33
TrpnBils
Quote:
Originally Posted by Santa
TrpnBils, You are such a hipocrit. Read what you wrote!!!!!




Real nice, idiot! Now THAT was a personal attack - learn to recognize it! With your personality you will hear it again.

P.S. You failed to mention the name of the "new species" created in the lab by Dr. Miller - because it never happened.

This isn't a personal attack? I'm done discussing this with you unless you actually have something of value to say to me. You've only been a member here for a day, so I don't really think you know me well enough to determine what kind of personality I have, so I really don't give a **** what you think at this point. I've got better things to do than waste my time with you... everyone else who posted on this topic has so far managed to keep it civilized, avoid name calling, and create an interesting environment, I don't see how it should be so hard for you to do the same.

Miller made amino acids, not a new species.
 
Old 02-12-2005, 06:00 PM   #34
Santa
I did not start the personal attacks you did. Don't dish it out if you can't take it.
 
Old 02-12-2005, 06:09 PM   #35
TrpnBils
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAV
But without any evidence to support it, so to is evolution. Either or requires the same faith.
Not arguing with you there, I agree 100% which is why I said I don't expect everyone to believe in evolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAV
If the principle of evolution held true, then ALL life forms would have evolved into higher forms. To say that all life evolved from single cell organisms is self defeating since there are still single celled organisms today.
Not necessarily ALL life forms, because sporadic mutations only affect some individuals, not the whole population. This means that if the mutation was somehow beneficial to the affected members (but not deleterious to the others), then they would be given the chance to differentiate. I don't think it's self-defeating because, again, evolution is not a linear process. Just because one thing evolves from another, that doesn't mean that the original will be wiped out. It branches, giving both a chance to survive. Now, if one outcompetes the other, then one species will die off, but that isn't always the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAV
What scientific evidence exists that can explain the selective mutation of part of, but not all of, a population?
Mutations don't happen because of selection. Selection happens (in part) because of sporadic mutations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAV
I didn't see the word wrong used once except in your post.
You're right, nobody ever used that word except for me, but that's sure as hell what it feels like. I've kinda got my back up against a wall here because I seem to be the only one arguing this side of it. Creationists can argue the "where's the evidence" part of it without a problem, but if anyone who believes in evolution says "where's the evidence for Creation" then they're seen as a Bible basher and I'm not going to do that to myself. If I wasn't a Christian, maybe I wouldn't care, but I'm not going to say that God doesn't exist because I know that he does.
 
Old 02-12-2005, 07:12 PM   #36
JTGoff69
Rings bell.........does anybody have any input on my question?
 
Old 02-12-2005, 07:21 PM   #37
TrpnBils
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTGoff69
Rings bell.........does anybody have any input on my question?
I have no idea... it's an interesting question though. I have read stuff about this at some point but I don't really remember much about it. Maybe somebody else can give you some input.
 
Old 02-12-2005, 09:11 PM   #38
Rich Z
You are all welcome to have heated and spirited discussions here, but I feel I must warn you that if personal attacks along with name calling and derogatory statements continue, one or more people are going to get booted off of this site. Please consider this as your ONLY warning.
 
Old 02-13-2005, 12:31 AM   #39
Sisuitl
Okay all, as tempting as this whole creationism vs. evolution debate is, I'm going to bite my tongue and try to focus. (there was no tongue biting smiley)

Anyway, the domestication of species *can* take place in a very very short period of time. There was a very famous study done in Russia where there was an attempt to domesticate foxes for the fur industry. After a mere 40 years of selective breeding for calmness, not only the behaviour of the foxes changed, their physiology had changed as well. They had floppy ears, shorter muzzles, their coats had gone from red or silver to black and white spotted. They behaved like puppies their whole lives and bonded with their human keepers.

Now, this was really puzzling to the researchers because they had not been selecting for physical traits at all, and none of the traits that showed up were present in the parent stock. After looking into it and doing a bunch of experiments they determined the following:

The change in the foxes' appearance wasn't due to the genes for their appearance being different from a wild foxes "appearance genes". Because they had been breeding tamer foxes, they were producing foxes with less adrenalin, and their genes were for less adrenalin.

If a fox embryo from the domestic strain is supplemented adrenalin, the embryo develops into a normal wild type scaredy fox, with all the physical characteristics of a wild fox.

They concluded that the presence or absence of adrenaline during embryonic development has an enormous impact on the physical appearance and behaviour of the animal.

I have also seen some studies done with dogs and adrenalin supplementing the embryos. From what I remember, the resulting puppies were extremely wolf-like in both appearance and behaviour.

It would be really interesting to do experiments along a similar line with other domestic animals such as cattle and see if they come out looking and behaving like aurochs. From the results of the canine studies my guess is that they would. I am guessing that most, if not all, of our domesticated mammals are simply selectively bred counterparts of their wild cousins who just produce a lot less adrenalin.

I don't know if reptile embryos respond in the same way as a mammal embro does to adrenalin levels during development. My guess would be no, but I could be very wrong. My other guess is that since corns are partly very popular because they are so easy going anyway, is that they probably didn't have a very high adrenalin level to begin with, so we may not see any physical changes as time goes by, since there isn't a lot of alteration of behaviour going on here.

Plus, Santa has a very valid point about his cattle not having changed in 50 years. From what I have seen (being a heritage livestock freak) most domestic mammals haven't changed for the thousands of years they have been in captivity, unless humans caused that change deliberately with a very specific purpose in mind. Take greyhounds for example, they have looked the same since the time of the ancient egyptians. We have no documentation of them ever having been a wolf, or wild, and there are no documented intermediary stages, either in paintings or in actual physical remains. If it actually did take thousands of years to domesticate an animal, we would have found fossil evidence of them in their intermediary stages when we excavate really early human settlements.

Here are some links to the domestic fox experiment of anyone is interested.

http://home.wlu.edu/~blackmerh/jsk/canid.htm

http://www.devbio.com/article.php?ch=23&id=223

The second one has photos of the foxes. You can see what a huge difference in appearance there is after just 40 years of selection.
 
Old 02-13-2005, 01:32 AM   #40
TrpnBils
Pretty wild stuff, that's awesome, I never heard of that study before. I think it does a good job of showing the effects of domestication, but like you said, corns are not mammals and are pretty easygoing anyway so it'd be hard to tell if captivity has had an effect on them like the one above. I just glanced over that webpage (I've been studying for my molecular bio exam all night so my brain is shot ...but I'll read it in the morning...lol), so it may have mentioned this and I just didn't see it. Can the domesticated foxes still breed with wild ones and produce viable offspring? I'm assuming they can, because I don't see how there could be that much of a change over that short of a time. If so, I think that is a good answer to the original post on this thread. There can be a huge amount of phenotypic difference and still not be a new species. I'm interested to see what some of the long-time corn breeders have to say about this, whether they have any experiences that could show evidence like that study described. I'm new with corns obviously, but non-hybrid matings have only led to differences in color/pattern, right? I don't remember ever seeing anything about major physiological differences from wild counterparts in the offspring, but I could be wrong.
 

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