CornSnake in the wild.... :)

Wow man thats so cool

Kevin, I get what you're saying. Though the Cane Toad is a horrible representation of what you're trying to say.

Really it's not going to harm anyone. Those snakes have the same survival instinct as their wild brethern.

Humans have mutations. We have brown, blue, green, black, hazel and all kinds of eye colors. We raise those babies into adults and set them free on the world. Our natural habitat is the Earth itself. We wreak havoc on the same places we may have grown up as kids. So should we just cage children and never let them roam the planet?

Same principle, larger scale, more prolific species.

Kevin, man, sorry, but you are so intent at looking at the trees and analyzing the leaves that you aren't seeing the forest.

The purpose of mutation is to provide genetic diversity within a species. Why? To have enough different players on the playing table so that a species may develop a trait that provides it an edge in keeping the species from going extinct if the environment turns hostile. Why is it that when an antibiotic is applied to a pathogen, it rarely kills them all, and therefore drug resistance can develop for that strain that escaped eradication? Why because of the genetic diversity within that species of pathogen that fortuitously had a few individuals that had mutated in significant ways to make them immune to the new hostile environment they lived in. This is pretty much standard fare all across the board in all levels of living organisms. "Survival of the fittest" doesn't mean the survival of those creatures who pump iron and work out at the gym. It means the survival of those animals best fitted with a genetic arsenal that allows them to weather assaults on their species.

I can actually turn your argument around and use it from a different angle. Do you believe we may actually be causing HARM to a species by capturing wild caught animals that turn out harboring a possibly unique gene, thereby removing it from the natural native population and therefore short circuiting the possibly beneficial effect it could have on the species? There is some evidence in this in that I have never heard of a Caramel corn snake being found in the wild, although the original ancestor was a presumed wild caught animal. And I seriously doubt anyone can dispute that the caramel coloration would be a positive survival trait for corn snakes in their native habitat. So suppose that one animal I got was the SOLE carrier of that gene, and that gene never got into the wild population, as it would have been destined to otherwise. Is releasing specimens NOW that carry that gene better, worse, or the same then had that original animal never been captured and removed from the local gene pool, therefore distributing that gene back then?

As for your comment about people killing snakes regardless of the coloration, sorry, but I beg to differ. I have seen countless numbers of people who professed to hate (or more accurately, FEARED) snakes give pause when seeing something like a Butter Corn or a Fluorescent Orange amelanistic corn, which had it been an encounter in the wild, just may very well have saved the life of that animal when the human being who found it hesitated enough to allow it to escape. Why are fossorial animals often so brightly colored in nature? For that matter why are ANY snakes so brightly colored at all? The fact that they exist and continue to thrive pretty much indicates that the particular chain of genetic events that led to that coloration was in fact a positive survival trait for that species.

As for the releasing of corns of any genetic variety within their natural range being an ecological disaster, sorry, but I sincerely doubt it. It has been my experience that native populations of many animals are declining alarmingly. Just from the problems I have had around my place lately with wild rodents infesting and damaging the wiring on my vehicles and other electrical equipment, I would say that the evidence is pretty strong that the predator class of animals to which corn snakes belong, is in rapid decline. In the past I have been to areas where there were so many rats in abundance, that it was clear that the population of natural predators for them had pretty much ceased to exist. So it is entirely possible that the release of corn snakes could very well be filling niches in the food chain that has previously had damaged or broken links caused by the hand of mankind. Surely you have to accept that some sort of replenishment of native populations of many species that have been decimated has to be beneficial on some level. Otherwise the protection of sea turtle nests, and head start programs for injured wildlife in a like vein has to be damaging as well.

Sorry, but no, in my opinion, based on all the other ills I have seen inflicted on nature by humanity, if anything, releasing corn snakes within their native range, regardless of the genetic traits they carry, is actually a beneficial move for a member of the normally destructive human race to engage in.

Oh yeah, before I forget. CANE TOAD? All that proves is how lame brained some scientists types can be with their hypothesis and observations. Yes, it is entirely possible for someone to hold major advanced degrees, yet be unable to cross the street without getting run over...

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Yes, it is entirely possible for someone to hold major advanced degrees, yet be unable to cross the street without getting run over...

I could not agree more.

Not to mention that morphs are already in "the wild".
I think we forget that sometimes here are 3 wild caughts and one that was hit by a car and didnt make it. Tell me they all look the same.

Here is a pic of one from Alabama


another Alabama found less than 12 miles from the other one (RIP rehab)this one was hit by a car.


How about some Florida types here 2 of these 3 are wild caughts
See if you can tell which is which. Actually the 3rd one is the daughter of one of them.....



If you guessed the top 2 are related your right the bottom one is a Pinellas county native, Top one came from Pasco (Dade city area). Came from a deconstruction site(they were tearing down an old house).

So morphs in the wild are out there already and they happen naturally already. Releasing a non feeder and it just happens to make it is not a huge deal. IF this snake happens to mate with a native snake all the offspring will look normal. The chances of the morph coming back out would be extremely rare.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Sorry, but no, in my opinion, based on all the other ills I have seen inflicted on nature by humanity, if anything, releasing corn snakes within their native range, regardless of the genetic traits they carry, is actually a beneficial move for a member of the normally destructive human race to engage in.

I think its a bit of a stretch to say its beneficial....and you can't disregard the genetics, they are what make the entire organism.

Rich, I see your point. From a realistic standpoint, releasing your corn is probably not going to cause a cane-toad size invasion. But if you also consider Kevin's (and just about every other biologist/ecologist/herpetologist), you'd see that releasing corns is just silly. Why give the government actual proof that snake breeders are letting captive animals go? Isn't that why Georgia has a ban in place for corns, and why anti-reptile legislation is gaining momentum....?

Originally Posted by Shiari

I have yet to see bfreewally1 ever post anything of use or intelligence. Apparently the trend continues.

And on the topic.... ceduke and I have decided that we need to visit you sometime in the near future and go herping on your property, Rich. :P I promise to only take home any charcoals I find. *giggles*

Too bad Shiari. There are a couple people who agree with me and they seem to know more than you about snakes

Originally Posted by bfreewally1

Too bad Shiari. There are a couple people who agree with me and they seem to know more than you about snakes

Really? Because it seems that there are even more people that agree with Rich.

Originally Posted by Calift

I think its a bit of a stretch to say its beneficial....and you can't disregard the genetics, they are what make the entire organism.

Rich, I see your point. From a realistic standpoint, releasing your corn is probably not going to cause a cane-toad size invasion. But if you also consider Kevin's (and just about every other biologist/ecologist/herpetologist), you'd see that releasing corns is just silly. Why give the government actual proof that snake breeders are letting captive animals go? Isn't that why Georgia has a ban in place for corns, and why anti-reptile legislation is gaining momentum....?

I believe that all things considered, it is much more likely to be beneficial then it is to be injurious. And I am not disregarding the genetics. That is what this discussion is all about. Any animal that has a genetic mutation that affects it in any way has no more or less chance of survival depending whether that mutation showed up in the wild, or it showed up in a captive population and released into the wild.

Matter of fact, I would have to say that the only real disadvantage I can think of that a snake raised in captivity would have compared to one hatched in the wild is that it would likely have a lesser aversion to contact with human beings. Which in many cases would prove to be fatal to it. But heck, I have caught plenty of absolutely wild snakes and noted that many of them really don't have a fear of humans if you don't go out of your way to frighten them, so perhaps even this is a non-issue. For instance, I have yet to ever have any gray rat snake we have found in the rodent building act the least bit upset at being picked up and escorted out the door.

Actually, I have considered the points made by those OPINIONS, and don't think releasing corns into their native range is silly at all. Matter of fact, I have never heard a compelling argument against it, much less any solid PROOF that it is a problem.

And no the government isn't concerned with NATIVE species releases at all. It is NON-NATIVE species that might supplant native similar species (like the corn snake) that they are concerned about. So actually such legislation is an effort to PROTECT and support native species, not restrict them.

Actually I don't know the real reason Georgia would restrict residents from having corn snakes (and other non-venomous snakes), yet are quite cavalier about the populace and VENOMOUS snakes. Never really made any sense to me, but fortunately I don't live there, so I've never been concerned enough to try to find that answer.

And no, it is NOT the release of native reptiles within their natural range at all that is "why anti-reptile legislation is gaining momentum". See the above similar paragraph, please.

Originally Posted by bfreewally1

Too bad Shiari. There are a couple people who agree with me and they seem to know more than you about snakes

People agreeing with the idea that releasing captive snakes into the wild is not a good one does not indicate usefulness nor intelligence upon your part.

Kevin S, while adamantly against the release of such snakes, has been backing up his opinions in a useful, intelligent, and mostly respectful manner.

Your posts are inflammatory, poorly thought out, poorly worded and again, show a lack of intelligence. You have continued this trend further in the post to which I am currently replying.

Now, to make this post be utterly unlike yours...

I have to admit that I'm not too fond of the idea of releasing snakes into the wild. I don't think, however, that it is going to do anything such as cause a massive outbreak of disease, nor cause the captive snakes to wildly outbreed their wild counterparts. While they do have instincts, these tend to get dulled after a while in captivity, meaning those snakes are far more likely to fall to predation than their wild brethren.

Originally Posted by dave partington

Thinking about the soot-covered northeast USA during the industrial revolution (1880's - 1920), when gypsy moths were black, to blend in. The rare white ones with a slight dusting of black were incredibly rare. Today, it's near impossible to find a black gypsy moth. Also considering how many animals have been killed to pave roads, mine resources, entire ecosystems destroyed to create decorative cypress mulch; the fallout from depleted uranium weapons causing deformities of human children in the mid-east and veterans/troops; (search: uranium babies), the chemicals used to produce food crops and the chemical poisions used to kill rodents, which snowball effect into the higher predators including snakes, and how many animals must have perished so I could have a computer in front of me. As a consumer, my purchasing power sends the message that I approve of these actions. The bulldozer pushed away mother nature so I could have places to eat, shop, live; and then people covered up the rape of nature with non-native landscaping plants of no benefit to native species. Sorry if I don't get too upset about a snake of a different color surviving in it's native range. But I appreciate the 'convenient focus' of the arguement. Let's not look too hard at our own selves.

Hi Dave, I'm new here. With all due respect to you, Rich Z and the rest of his forum's participants- it simply IS irresponsible for Rich to release his captive monstrosities into the wild. In fact, this behavior is illegal in many states. Unfortunately it seems as if many people involved in this thread are just so stubborn and biased in favor of Rich that they will not listen to reason. That's how it appears to me, an impartial observer who knows none of you.

I believe that Rich has a responsibility to rid himself of his burden (his excessive snake collection and progeny) through legitimate, responsible means that do not unnecessarily put the native wild population of herps at risk of contracting something from his collection that they aren't prepared for.

This IS a matter of interest for all herp enthusiasts because our image is being heavily scrutanized at the moment. The python debacle has been sensationalized by the media and now herpers are being mischaracterized and demonized for the exact same behavior that Rich is guilty of.

Say what you will about my complaint being idiosynchratic or unsavory in a place where Rich is so popular, the reasoning behind it is obvious whether it's a matter of consensus or not.