just how fast does it take snakes to get scale rot anyhow?

How about someone makes a new topic to address animal cruelty in the Netherlands so we stop polluting this thread?

What I would like to see is proof of how cohabbing is stressing my snakes out. I've witnessed the same changes the OP has since I've cohabbed some of them - they are way calmer, have a slower, more normal breath rate when approached, never refused a meal and never exhibited any sort of stress or territorial behaviour. Personally, I haven't owned snakes for a full snake lifespan yet, but all the people I know over here who cohab have had their snakes live normal life spans with no health issues that you wouldn't encounter in snakes that are homed seperately. In the years that I've had my snakes, none of them have had ANY health issues whatsoever except for Saphira, who recently had an oviduct prolapse (note that she has been housed seperately for a while now). Do I take this as proof that seperate homing of snakes is bad for them and causes oviduct prolapses? No. That's a ridiculous conclusion to jump to. Does that mean I'll go and scavenge for threads to spout my opinion regarding cohabbing on whenever a snake that is not cohabbed gets a health issue? No! I will stick to the topic and try to answer any questions the OP might have, without spouting ridiculous accusations such as "YOU ARE KILLING YOUR SNAKES" when I have zero proof for that.

Originally Posted by Isoldael

How about someone makes a new topic to address animal cruelty in the Netherlands so we stop polluting this thread?

What I would like to see is proof of how cohabbing is stressing my snakes out. I've witnessed the same changes the OP has since I've cohabbed some of them - they are way calmer, have a slower, more normal breath rate when approached, never refused a meal and never exhibited any sort of stress or territorial behaviour. Personally, I haven't owned snakes for a full snake lifespan yet, but all the people I know over here who cohab have had their snakes live normal life spans with no health issues that you wouldn't encounter in snakes that are homed seperately. In the years that I've had my snakes, none of them have had ANY health issues whatsoever except for Saphira, who recently had an oviduct prolapse (note that she has been housed seperately for a while now). Do I take this as proof that seperate homing of snakes is bad for them and causes oviduct prolapses? No. That's a ridiculous conclusion to jump to. Does that mean I'll go and scavenge for threads to spout my opinion regarding cohabbing on whenever a snake that is not cohabbed gets a health issue? No! I will stick to the topic and try to answer any questions the OP might have, without spouting ridiculous accusations such as "YOU ARE KILLING YOUR SNAKES" when I have zero proof for that.

That is why stress is called the silent killer. Of course you won't see it. And yes, you are killing your snakes, or at least giving them a horrible crappy life. Way to go!!!

Wait, so because I see no proof of ANY STRESS or stress related issues, it's a silent killer? That's about as sound a reasoning as claiming that feeding your corn snake mice kills them. Can't see any proof of it and your snakes live normal, long, healthy lives? That's cause it's a silent killer! Same goes for letting them drink water or housing them on bedding. Oh, and keeping them in wooden vivs and glass vivs is deadly too!

Sorry, but that made absolutely no sense.

On a side note, I've reported this thread and hope a mod will clean it up soon. This is getting completely ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Isoldael

Wait, so because I see no proof of ANY STRESS or stress related issues, it's a silent killer? That's about as sound a reasoning as claiming that feeding your corn snake mice kills them. Can't see any proof of it and your snakes live normal, long, healthy lives? That's cause it's a silent killer! Same goes for letting them drink water or housing them on bedding. Oh, and keeping them in wooden vivs and glass vivs is deadly too!

Sorry, but that made absolutely no sense.

On a side note, I've reported this thread and hope a mod will clean it up soon. This is getting completely ridiculous.

Like I said before, in the wild if an animal shows distress it shortly after becomes prey. They instinctivly will not show stress. Usually when a snake shows there is something wrong, it is too late to save it.

And please, tell me how forcing an animal with a companion that goes against every.single.instinct it has is benefitting it?

Cruelty, pure and simple.

Edited to add, what is really ridiculous is you reporting a thread because you don't like what is being said. You don't like your cruel husbandry practices being questioned. Have you not noticed that one of the most outspoken posters in this thread IS A MODERATOR?????

Originally Posted by Isoldael

On a side note, I've reported this thread and hope a mod will clean it up soon. This is getting completely ridiculous.

Mods don't edit or delete anything on this site. Nor are threads required to remain on topic.

Originally Posted by starsevol

And please, tell me how forcing an animal with a companion that goes against every.single.instinct it has is benefitting it?

Okay, I have no proof for this. This is from personal observation and holds no scientific value.

Several of my snakes that were extremely shy and would rattle their tails or even do mock attacks when I would pick them up to feed them or give them a check-up, have settled down completely since being cohabbed. This means I can now pick them up, feed them and otherwise handle them without causing additional stress. I find that to be a major advantage. I'm fairly convinced that snakes don't form bonds or friendships with each other, but my theory is that the calming effect happens because they get more used to being around movement and being touched by other moving things.

Again, I have no scientific proof for any of this, but at least I KNOW I'm speculating. It's very easy to yell "omg you monster", but what good does it do when you have only examples of times where it's gone wrong (and almost always due to the owner's own mistakes)? This is almost at the point of the hybrid discussions now - ranting, yelling at each other and saying extremely mean things without backing it up or even realizing that this wasn't what the thread was about in the first place. How about you try to respect someone elses opinion without accusing them of animal cruelty?

Originally Posted by Nanci

Mods don't edit or delete anything on this site. Nor are threads required to remain on topic.

Alright, my bad. I was under the impression that right-out telling someone that they are killing their snakes and that "we don't like people like you here" would fall under hateful or at the very least a personal attack. My bad. I'll stay off this thread for now.

Again, OP, my apologies, and I hope you won't let these people get under your skin. You're very well entitled to making your own decisions, and as long as you do the research, cohabbing can be done very well

Originally Posted by Isoldael

Okay, I have no proof for this. This is from personal observation and holds no scientific value.

Several of my snakes that were extremely shy and would rattle their tails or even do mock attacks when I would pick them up to feed them or give them a check-up, have settled down completely since being cohabbed. This means I can now pick them up, feed them and otherwise handle them without causing additional stress. I find that to be a major advantage. I'm fairly convinced that snakes don't form bonds or friendships with each other, but my theory is that the calming effect happens because they get more used to being around movement and being touched by other moving things.

Again, I have no scientific proof for any of this, but at least I KNOW I'm speculating. It's very easy to yell "omg you monster", but what good does it do when you have only examples of times where it's gone wrong (and almost always due to the owner's own mistakes)? This is almost at the point of the hybrid discussions now - ranting, yelling at each other and saying extremely mean things without backing it up or even realizing that this wasn't what the thread was about in the first place. How about you try to respect someone elses opinion without accusing them of animal cruelty?

For the first part, SCIENTISTS and NATURALISTS are saying that these animals are solitary animals.

And sure, a calmer less bitey snake benefits YOU, but what if the snake is high strung by nature and by housing it in with another snake it is not allowed to exhibit it's true disposition. What if what you are doing is forcing the snake to act in a way it wouldn't act naturally?

Some snakes are naturally calmer and nicer than others. Some aren't. What you might see as a calmer animal might in fact be an animal that is stressed into being something it isn't.

Of course you can't SEE stress. You can only see its effects. The whole point is, (and after this, I GIVE UP-) there is NO benefit to keeping snakes together. There is actual or potential harm. Whether you can define or quantify the harm depends on how acutely observant you are of your snakes, who are programmed to never show stress at the risk of becoming prey. If you want to accept that risk for your animals, who don't have a choice, who depend on you to provide, not the most convenient living conditions, but the most optimal living conditions, then no amount of reasoning is going to change your mind. Whatever. As Beth says- they are yours to put in harm's way. You're the human, you have dominion- go for it. Just don't expect most educated keepers to pat you on the back for putting your animals at risk.

Originally Posted by starsevol

Bottom line, they are yours to abuse and kill.

But most of us here don't like people who do that sort of thing......

Originally Posted by Isoldael

telling someone that they are killing their snakes

and that "we don't like people like you here" would fall under hateful or at the very least a personal attack.

Paraphrasing is not the same as a direct quote. See the difference?