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Health Issues/Feeding Problems Anything related to general or specific health problems. Issues having to do with feeding problems or tips.

just how fast does it take snakes to get scale rot anyhow?
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:34 PM   #31
BloodyBaroness
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanci View Post
Of course you can't SEE stress. You can only see its effects. The whole point is, (and after this, I GIVE UP-) there is NO benefit to keeping snakes together. There is actual or potential harm. Whether you can define or quantify the harm depends on how acutely observant you are of your snakes, who are programmed to never show stress at the risk of becoming prey. If you want to accept that risk for your animals, who don't have a choice, who depend on you to provide, not the most convenient living conditions, but the most optimal living conditions, then no amount of reasoning is going to change your mind. Whatever. As Beth says- they are yours to put in harm's way. You're the human, you have dominion- go for it. Just don't expect most educated keepers to pat you on the back for putting your animals at risk.
+1 to this.

Well said Nanci!
 
Old 03-28-2013, 12:35 PM   #32
Nanci
If anyone is having trouble understanding why I am posting in normal person black, and moderator blue, that is because I _am_ allowed to have a personal opinion here, I am not, as a regular member, required to be impartial. If I make a statement as a moderator, it will be noted as such.
 
Old 03-28-2013, 12:35 PM   #33
starsevol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanci View Post
Of course you can't SEE stress. You can only see its effects. The whole point is, (and after this, I GIVE UP-) there is NO benefit to keeping snakes together. There is actual or potential harm. Whether you can define or quantify the harm depends on how acutely observant you are of your snakes, who are programmed to never show stress at the risk of becoming prey. If you want to accept that risk for your animals, who don't have a choice, who depend on you to provide, not the most convenient living conditions, but the most optimal living conditions, then no amount of reasoning is going to change your mind. Whatever. As Beth says- they are yours to put in harm's way. You're the human, you have dominion- go for it. Just don't expect most educated keepers to pat you on the back for putting your animals at risk.

Word. ^^^^^^^^^^^

Tried to rep you and I have to spread it around. Someone please get it for me.
 
Old 03-28-2013, 12:43 PM   #34
Chip
I'm out of Nanci rep too. I have heard people argue for dogfighting because their dog "likes to fight." That's about as logical as the cohabbing arguments.
 
Old 03-28-2013, 12:50 PM   #35
Tara80
I repped her for y'all.
It was very well said.
 
Old 03-28-2013, 01:04 PM   #36
Isoldael
Quote:
Originally Posted by starsevol View Post
For the first part, SCIENTISTS and NATURALISTS are saying that these animals are solitary animals.

And sure, a calmer less bitey snake benefits YOU, but what if the snake is high strung by nature and by housing it in with another snake it is not allowed to exhibit it's true disposition. What if what you are doing is forcing the snake to act in a way it wouldn't act naturally?

Some snakes are naturally calmer and nicer than others. Some aren't. What you might see as a calmer animal might in fact be an animal that is stressed into being something it isn't.
As for snakes not being solitary animals - I'll come back to the cat example. They are solitary creatures in the wild, yet TONS of people house them together. Do you go around telling those people that they are killing their cats because of stress? Or how about dogs, who naturally live in packs. Do you go around telling people who only have one dog that they are killing their dog because of stress?

Back to snakes - I'll go for the more scientific approach then. Abnormally high heart rates and breath rates are considered signs of stress (not taking into account the breath rate when snakes are smelling their environment, as it's a lot higher then). If the snake is obviously stressed, bity and "high strung", that doens't benefit the snake in any way. It does benefit me personally if I don't get bit every time I pick up my snakes, but that's not why I like them to be calm (honestly, corn snake bites aren't that bad). I like them calm because it benefits THEM. High stress hormone levels aren't good for any creature. Biting me all the time won't help them either (possible issues with accidental tooth extraction, etc).

You keep bringing up how a snake "would act naturally". The thing is, we're taking them out of the wild and putting them into a situation where they cannot act naturally. They can't hunt (unless you release them onto a large patch of land with live mice?), they can't explore, they don't face dangers such as predators or physical injury by sharp objects. The behaviour you describe (biting, being high strung, etc) are a direct result of those threats in the wild. Being stressed helps them to survive, there. In captivity, none of that is necessary as they don't face any threats (or at least, not if we can help it). I'm not "not allowing my snake to exhibit its true disposition", I'm putting them in a situation where they get used to touch so they don't get stressed out every time they are picked up.

I do think that if people want to cohab, they should keep in mind that each snake is different. My male, for instance, does not respond well to cohabbing - he displays some barely noticable signs of stress when cohabbed, so he has his own viv. Not all snakes will be suited for living together, just like some humans aren't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanci View Post
Of course you can't SEE stress. You can only see its effects. The whole point is, (and after this, I GIVE UP-) there is NO benefit to keeping snakes together. There is actual or potential harm. Whether you can define or quantify the harm depends on how acutely observant you are of your snakes, who are programmed to never show stress at the risk of becoming prey. If you want to accept that risk for your animals, who don't have a choice, who depend on you to provide, not the most convenient living conditions, but the most optimal living conditions, then no amount of reasoning is going to change your mind. Whatever. As Beth says- they are yours to put in harm's way. You're the human, you have dominion- go for it. Just don't expect most educated keepers to pat you on the back for putting your animals at risk.
I'm very much aware of the fact that you can't see stress. Like you said, you can see its effects. If you, however, don't see any effects over a large group of people that are properly cohabbed (enough space, enough hides, enough food, fed seperately), that may not be proof that cohabbing can be done without increased risk, but it surely is an indication.

As for noticing signs of stress, I'm very much aware that I'm not an expert. I do, however, have a lot of experience in noticing small things, small changes in behaviour, breathing, feeding pattern, etc. as we were taught these things in veterinary medicine. Furthermore, I've raised each of my snakes myself and am very familiar with their normal behavioural patterns - changes in those could also indicate stress. I love my snakes to bits, and if I thought that cohabbing them did any harm, I certainly wouldn't be doing it. Telling people who cohab that they are killing their snakes or that it's animal cruelty is, in my opinion, an unnecessarily harsh and harmful thing to say.

Again, I understand that people have different opinions, but I just wish people would be at least somewhat respectful to one another without resorting to guilt-tripping someone into thinking they are doing as much as KILLING their snakes. When a simple question like "how long does it take for scale rot to manifest itself" is asked, no one asks you to start spouting opinions about cohabbing, ESPECIALLY if the OP already asked you to stop it and stay on topic. I know many of you bash Carpe Serpentis for bringing up the hybrid topic when it's not related to the original post, but the exact same thing is happening here... I'm half waiting for the "show pics of your collection then!" -.-
 
Old 03-28-2013, 01:09 PM   #37
DragonsDenSerpents
Just a quick correction - wild/feral dogs are not pack animals, they are opportunistic scavengers. They will come together as a group if it benefits them, but they will separate when that benefit is over. True packs are wolves (family units) and hyenas.

I also feel the cohabbing issue IS relevant to the question, as stress can cause a lowered or weakened immune system, which can contribute to scale rot manifesting faster or more severe than is usually seen.

Carry on.
 
Old 03-28-2013, 01:11 PM   #38
Isoldael
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonsDenSerpents View Post
Just a quick correction - wild/feral dogs are not pack animals, they are opportunistic scavengers. They will come together as a group if it benefits them, but they will separate when that benefit is over. True packs are wolves (family units) and hyenas.

I also feel the cohabbing issue IS relevant to the question, as stress can cause a lowered or weakened immune system, which can contribute to scale rot manifesting faster or more severe than is usually seen.

Carry on.
Wow, a sensible argument, thanks for that . Yes, stress can cause things to manifest themselves faster, so a meaningful reply to the topic would have been "Normally, it takes about x days for it to manifest itself, but the fact that you're cohabbing might mean extra stress so it could be a bit faster than that". Instead, we already have about 4 pages of discussion on cohabbing that I sadly contributed to
 
Old 03-28-2013, 01:20 PM   #39
starsevol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isoldael View Post
As for snakes not being solitary animals - I'll come back to the cat example. They are solitary creatures in the wild, yet TONS of people house them together. Do you go around telling those people that they are killing their cats because of stress? Or how about dogs, who naturally live in packs. Do you go around telling people who only have one dog that they are killing their dog because of stress?

. I love my snakes to bits, and if I thought that cohabbing them did any harm, I certainly wouldn't be doing it. Telling people who cohab that they are killing their snakes or that it's animal cruelty is, in my opinion, an unnecessarily harsh and harmful thing to say.

Again, I understand that people have different opinions, but I just wish people would be at least somewhat respectful to one another without resorting to guilt-tripping someone into thinking they are doing as much as KILLING their snakes. When a simple question like "how long does it take for scale rot to manifest itself" is asked, no one asks you to start spouting opinions about cohabbing, ESPECIALLY if the OP already asked you to stop it and stay on topic. I know many of you bash Carpe Serpentis for bringing up the hybrid topic when it's not related to the original post, but the exact same thing is happening here... I'm half waiting for the "show pics of your collection then!" -.-
Well, for starters, both dogs and cats have been domesticated for thousands of years and thousands of generations. Snakes, notsomuch. Dogs and cats have adapted to being pets, snakes notsomuch.......

As far as "showing respect" for someone I believe is putting their animals health and lives at risk due to their own selfishness....someone I consider cruel...sorry but it will be a cold day in Hades.....

This health issue was likely caused by her poor husbandry and even if it wasn't, I am sure her future health issues will be.

Edited to add, you have a large number of people telling you that what you are doing is hurting your snakes. People who have kept snakes much longer than you have. And instead of listening, you choose to believe that what you are doing is fine and dandy. I guess EVERYONE here is wrong, and you are right? One person here (not me) likened your arguments to co hab to people who fight and kill dogs. Doesn't that mean anything?
 
Old 03-28-2013, 01:28 PM   #40
Tara80
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonsDenSerpents View Post
I also feel the cohabbing issue IS relevant to the question, as stress can cause a lowered or weakened immune system, which can contribute to scale rot manifesting faster or more severe than is usually seen.
This is also what it appears to me. It's breeding season and it *sounds* like they are having territorial issues; I see males go through this every Spring. having two males in a tank at this time of year would definitely cause fighting and undue stress. I think this is common sense as far as most breeders would see it, just through years of observation.

I've had snakes knock over their water bowls and sit in wet aspen/water for a few days until i've noticed and never has scale rot been an issue. That tells me the snake under question has a larger than average stress level.
 

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