Supersize corn

Originally Posted by OCFinfan

As far as mrweaw goes, I was only rude when someone was rude to me. I stated my point, how I felt, but the people that replied felt it was necesssary to resort to name calling way before they even tried to offer up a valid argument, if at all. You say I have a hard time telling the difference; however most people were trying to bash me for what was implied, trying to put words in my mouth, getting philosophical or hypothetical, rather than what was said.

Let's not play Clintonian word games. What you said and what you implied were very clear. And that is that people are destroying the wild populations by collecting. It's right there in black and white.

You have still offered no proof, nor even a scrap of evidence to show this to be true. You can't just call someone an axe murderer and then act like it's their job to prove they are not. When you are making accusations (which you very clearly did) then it is upon you to prove them before anyone should have to make any arguments to the contrary.

And you can't just say, "you have no need to own an axe because I think you might use it to murder someone" and expect that people need to justify to you why they own an axe. Again, it is upon you to show that it is in some way "bad" before you can in any way justify telling other people what they can or cannot do or that they are "bad" for doing so.

You claim that this has happened with other species. That's true, but there are plenty of other species that are widely hunted, collected--whatever term you want to use--and are not destroyed by it. So your statement does not prove that anything WILL happen, just that it's possible. As I pointed out, it's also possible for "everyone" to do any number of normal everyday harmless things that would suddenly make it very destructive. That doesn't make said activity bad in itself, unless or until people actually start doing so in significant numbers to justify a belief that it's a realistic concern.

I could see if people were burning down fields and wiping out entire populations to collect a bunch of snakes and throw them in shipping containers to starve, dehydrate, and be eaten alive by parasites so that they could sell a few of them at rock-bottom prices to unsuspecting buyers. But that simply is not the case with cornsnakes.

Yes, if everyone went and collected a bag full of wild corns, there would be a problem. But that is not what is happening, and again you have not shown a single shred of evidence that anything of the sort is happening. Nor have you shown that the wild populations have even declined. The best you have offered is that the captive population has increased. They reproduce in great numbers in captivity, so of course they have increased. This says nothing of the wild population.

But, despite a total lack of evidence or even any kind of logical argument at your side, you still went ahead with your clearly accusatory tone. In order to make accusations that people are doing wrong by collecting, you first need to show that 1- there is a decline in the population, and 2- that said decline is a result of overcollecting. Well, where's the beef?

Meanwhile, here are some numbers. The ACR currently has 1606 snakes registered. Of these, 4, (yes, four) cornsnakes, are reported as wild-caught. That's one fourth of one percent. Two of those four wild caught snakes are the founders of the entire lava line. How many hundreds of lavas (or is it thousands now) have been produced in captivity? So far it's around 15% of the registered population that are carrying the lava gene.

One of those other wild-caught snakes is Susan's snake which she has said produced 135 or so hatchlings.

Meanwhile, 60% of the ACR's population is carrying the amel gene, which means that they are all in some way descended from Dr Bechtel's original albino. That's just the albino gene. Yes, those numbers will continue to change as more corns enter the registry, but it's not very likely that there will be massive changes to the makeup of the general population. You can check out the gene frequencies of the rest of them at this URL: http://cornguide.com/ACR/GeneFrequencies.php

I might regret chimming in on this one, but from what I can see, OC is one of those types that just likes to start crap and get everyone all worked up. They get off on arguments, and feed off the attention. So if you ask me, when someone makes a post that is so obviously an attempt to piss people off, the best thing to do is not respond and that person will go look for somewhere else to get the attention they're looking for. So not really anything to add, as it's all been said, but sometimes it's better to just let things go rather than get all worked up, cause it's just gonna keep going as long as the originator is getting what he/she wants out of it... attention.

No worries there, I have said what I think and believe on this subject. If my posts will have an impact on 1 person contemplating taking that beautiful animal they were so fortunate enough to see in nature, then my expressing myself and opening up my beliefs to everyone for them to judge and criticize will have been worth it.

Peace,

Tom Walker

Originally Posted by OCFinfan

No worries there, I have said what I think and believe on this subject. If my posts will have an impact on 1 person contemplating taking that beautiful animal they were so fortunate enough to see in nature, then my expressing myself and opening up my beliefs to everyone for them to judge and criticize will have been worth it.

Peace,

Tom Walker

Excellent, perhaps you can work on those who fish next

It is obvious that you cant see sarcasm when it blatantly slaps you in the face. Give me a reason or two on why we couldn't release captive corns back into the wild instead of just writing exactly. That was sarcasm when I wrote: "its not like we could just take some of the captive corns we have and re release them back into the wild if that does happen cause you know, that just would be dumb..." Actually give me an answer not just lame @ss bull sh*t!

And capturing and hunting is not the same! Sure they maybe taken out of the wild but we are not killing them! We are giving them a exponentially greater chance of survival. Exponentially means greater for lack of a better lamans word... just for your reference! And in fact I would say we are ensuring the survival of the species with breeding in captivity.

Quote: 4. Lets see, what other contradictory and not intelligent things did you say... Quote: "I would be happier if wild snakes remained that way...wild." Still waiting to hear about your release party for your snakes...
Did I say captive bred snakes? No. I said wild snakes. You read it, copied it, and still got it wrong. I would prefer wild snakes remaining wild. period.

I didnt get it wrong, you are just a hypocritic!

Hey look! Another hypocritical statement: "I have no problem with the capturing and breeding of different kinds of snakes,"

You know what man, you arnt even worth my time and effort. If oyu want to bitch and complain, start your own thread somehwere else, dont jack someone elses. Better yet, bitch and complaine somewhere else completely.

Jay, you might want to tone it down a notch, or two or three. It's nice that you're so passionate about the issue, but the vulgarity doesn't make your point for you, it only makes it harder to find.

Sigh...my head hurts from just skimming this thread. Smells like PETA rhetoric to me.

Having an opinion is one thing, but going onto a site where we all are snake lovers and enjoy our beautiful reptiles and bashing those who have taken one out of the wild is another. If you have an opinion, that is great... keep it to yourself, obviously this is not a site where controversy is something people come on here for. We all care for our snakes, and feel equally protective over them as you do, but that does not give you a right to barge in and force your opinion on us. If that is your opinion, you may want to find a website with people who share your same feelings, and rant and rave there along with them. We all feel the same here, and i don't think that aggravating everyone is going to make you feel any better about the topic. If you feel that taking snakes out of the wild is "terrible", then don't do it, it's a choice for people, not against the law... So I suggest you try not to force your beliefs upon us so that the members of this website can go back to enjoying ourselves.

I'm mostly a lurker here, but I don't like the idea that a discussion topic has to be non-controversial to have a place on this forum. The discussion would have been better if it had been in its own thread, and conducted with more civility, but I don't think this interesting topic should be taboo. I don't agree with OCFinfan's opinion on taking snakes from the wild (I've done it myself a few times), but I was interested in his opinions and those of other posters. I'm not so sensitive that I can't handle reading an opposing opinion, even if it is presented in a somewhat belligerent manner (and targets ME).

My $.02

Dont mean to bring this back up but...

Like jay stated, alot of animals are being hunted wich is why they are endanged, and people are now breeding them in captivity to try and get the population back up.

With all the people that live in florida, and moving to florida and hotter places (i should know, my family wants to move down their) There is a ton of construction and destroying of the corns habitat.

Its not like every single day people are going out there with the intentions of snaggin handfulls of wild corns. But yes, some people do it, but not to ruin the species...to better it, to get new blood, ETC. If i visited Florida (which we oftedn do) and I found/captured a wild corn snake...me being me, i would want to keep it (once checked over for parasites etc) as a piece of Florida since I can't live there.

Anywho, Instead of waiting until there is only about 100 corn snakes left in the wild, making it harder to bring the population back up, why can't we start now? To guarantee the survival of this species for YEARS to come.

EVERY snake came from the wild, generations..even the snakes you have..have wild genes.

Anyway, thats just me..