CornSnake in the wild.... :)

I decided that Shaky was right and that I ought to present something more than just a feeling of criticism for Rich's releases, so here's a start:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/20095276

"...upper respiratory tract disease in the Desert Tortoise (G. agassizii) is thought to have been introduced into populations of tortoises in the Mojave Desert in the southwestern U.S.A. by release of ill captive desert tortoises. A similar situation appears to exist for certain populations of the Gopher Tortoise in Florida, U.S.A.."

This is an example of captive animals transmitting disease to native populations through release. This piece of evidence establishes that the degree of risk in this behavior is serious enough to warrant criticism.

I bet I could find others...

Originally Posted by Crotalus

I decided that Shaky was right and that I ought to present something more than just a feeling of criticism for Rich's releases, so here's a start:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/20095276

"...upper respiratory tract disease in the Desert Tortoise (G. agassizii) is thought to have been introduced into populations of tortoises in the Mojave Desert in the southwestern U.S.A. by release of ill captive desert tortoises. A similar situation appears to exist for certain populations of the Gopher Tortoise in Florida, U.S.A.."

This is an example of captive animals transmitting disease to native populations through release. This piece of evidence establishes that the degree of risk in this behavior is serious enough to warrant criticism.

I bet I could find others...

Doesn't sound like they are all too positive about their speculations, now does it? Emphasis added, btw. Heck, I could strike a decent argument against that hypothesis concerning the gopher tortoises in that it's been a well publicized practice for developers wanting to build on the tortoises' natural preferred terrain, to dig out those tortoises and relocate them to localities that are NOT preferred for development. Coincidentally enough, those localities are not preferred for the tortoises neither, otherwise they would already be living there. Generally, those relocated areas are low lying, damp, and (yes, big stretch of the imagination here) quite likely to increase the incidence of respiratory distress from the elevated moisture levels in animals already highly stressed out from the relocation process. Even discounting this scenario, it could quite possibly be the relocation of wild SICK animals into other populations that contributed to the problem, and had nothing at all to do with captive released tortoises. For that matter, I don't believe that the gopher tortoise was ever all that popular as a pet anyway, so such an incidence of captive releases would be an insignificant factor compared to the wholesale relocations during the booming Florida development frenzy.

Now, back to corn snakes, heck, before I ever got into the business of producing corns to sell, I thought it was a noble gesture to release most of my corns in various locales all up and down the eastern seaboard back in the early to mid 80s. In the 20 years or so since I did that, has there EVER been any incident of an unexplained epidemic or die off among corn snakes in wild populations?

So this all boils down to your apparent baseless FEAR about releasing captive animals into the wild and the fact that someone who disagrees with you MUST be irresponsible? And you claim that some states have established laws against such releases? What states and what was the actual basis for those laws?

I would assume that anyone well established in the breeding industry would know how to get rid of these animals. One way to do it, as unfortunate as it seems, is to euthanize them. You could also give them to coral snake owners as feeders, things of this nature. The point is that you created the problem of excess offspring, you should be able to find a solution that minimizes risk at all costs.

See? You don't even understand the circumstances under which I have released some animals. I have never had a problem with excess offspring and can sell every one I want to. But some animals that demonstrate that they are not compatible with being in captivity, or insist on feed items other then that I would prefer they take, or perhaps have spinal kinks that are not life threatening yet make them difficult to sell, well, I BELIEVE they are better off with being released rather then your apparent solution, which is to just kill them. At least I give those living creatures a CHANCE. As far as the corn snakes themselves are concerned, wouldn't a rational person, if they thought hard enough about it, come to the logical conclusion that providing an animal a chance at survival is much more ethical and responsible then simply killing them without providing such a chance? In my opinion, if a person can't have even that minimal level of compassion for the animals they are working with, well perhaps working with living animals is something that they are not really cut out to do.

Sorry to belabor this point, but you are only expressing an opinion that is nothing more then that. Simply an OPINION. It is based completely on conjecture and supposition, and you are distraught that everyone else is not swallowing your opinion wholesale without requiring that some PROOF would be nice to support your opinion. You are stating that it is your opinion that releasing captive hatched animals MAY be detrimental to the wild population and it is better to kill the animals rather than take that chance. My opinion is that captive releases PROBABLY will not harm the wild population they may come in contact, and with that in mind, it is better to give those animals a shot at living rather then just kill them based on an unlikely scenario that some may be inflating to the level of fact rather than what is really nothing more then wild guesses.

Honestly, I have had this same conversation many times before, and to date no one has provided any proof to me contrary to my own opinion on this matter. Not that it matters any longer, as I am out of the business of breeding reptiles, but I guess I still like to engage in a debate of this nature, even if it is only an academic exercise.

So if you have any further information that is actually based on fact, please let me know. Otherwise mere repetition of the same arguments using different wording is just not going to be of interest to me.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Heck, I could strike a decent argument against that hypothesis concerning the gopher tortoises in that it's been a well publicized practice for developers wanting to build on the tortoises' natural preferred terrain, to dig out those tortoises and relocate them to localities that are NOT preferred for development. Coincidentally enough, those localities are not preferred for the tortoises neither, otherwise they would already be living there. Generally, those relocated areas are low lying, damp, and (yes, big stretch of the imagination here) quite likely to increase the incidence of respiratory distress from the elevated moisture levels in animals already highly stressed out from the relocation process. Even discounting this scenario, it could quite possibly be the relocation of wild SICK animals into other populations that contributed to the problem, and had nothing at all to do with captive released tortoises. For that matter, I don't believe that the gopher tortoise was ever all that popular as a pet anyway, so such an incidence of captive releases would be an insignificant factor compared to the wholesale relocations during the booming Florida development frenzy.

They still do this here, well actually the developers won't lift a finger to help, they would prefer to just bulldoze them in and bury them alive. But just last a summer I was out digging up gopher tortoises as a volunteer so they could be relocated. The developer had to allow volunteers as a requirement of their permit to dig up as many as they could find, but any that weren't found by the deadline set by the developer were bulldozed. I am not by any means pro developer and to be honest I wish they were not developing there (a little to close for my comfort) also hopefully we were not spreading around any diseases, but it did and to me still does seem to me at least like a better option than just bulldozing the tortoises in.

Anyways just wanted to add this still happens.

I really think that presented with a compelling argument against release, it would stop. So far, though, we haven't seen it.

Again, I agree that the potential is arguable, but people have been catching, keeping, and releasing snakes for way longer than twenty years.

Crotalus, we all see the point you're trying to make, and perhaps in some species, or even some habitats, populations may be quite susceptible, but in this case, I still lean the other way.

Originally Posted by Shaky

Crotalus, we all see the point you're trying to make, and perhaps in some species, or even some habitats, populations may be quite susceptible, but in this case, I still lean the other way.

Okay, then how about this (these are Australian Laws, not to be confused with U.S. laws):

Release into the wild of any snake that has been in captivity — whether native or not — is not permitted without a licence under the National Parks and Wildlife Act 1974...

Such a licence would normally only be issued by the NSW Department of Environment and Conservation for rehabilitation of previously wild snakes and only if:
• the animal(s) have been completely isolated during rehabilitation;
• the animal(s) are returned close to their point of capture; and
• there is a very high conservation need to return the animals to the wild.
Release into the wild is also not in the best interests of the individual snake as it may be unable to survive. More importantly for our native snakes, there is a great risk of inadvertently introducing a disease into native snake populations.

The above was taken from page 12/pt. 6 of this pdf:

http://www.environment.sa.gov.au/bio...e_protocol.pdf

Of course this isn't a US law and nor should it be (federally), but it does reflect a credible world government agency federally banning the release of captive and native snakes into the wild for the purposes I've previously argued.

Maybe tomorrow I will have time to look around for official state legal statutes that make this type of thing illegal.

Originally Posted by Crotalus

Okay, then how about this (these are Australian Laws, not to be confused with U.S. laws):

Release into the wild of any snake that has been in captivity — whether native or not — is not permitted without a licence under the National Parks and Wildlife Act 1974...

Such a licence would normally only be issued by the NSW Department of Environment and Conservation for rehabilitation of previously wild snakes and only if:
• the animal(s) have been completely isolated during rehabilitation;
• the animal(s) are returned close to their point of capture; and
• there is a very high conservation need to return the animals to the wild.
Release into the wild is also not in the best interests of the individual snake as it may be unable to survive. More importantly for our native snakes, there is a great risk of inadvertently introducing a disease into native snake populations.

The above was taken from page 12/pt. 6 of this pdf:

http://www.environment.sa.gov.au/bio...e_protocol.pdf

Of course this isn't a US law and nor should it be (federally), but it does reflect a credible world government agency federally banning the release of captive and native snakes into the wild for the purposes I've previously argued.

Maybe tomorrow I will have time to look around for official state legal statutes that make this type of thing illegal.

I hope you aren't convinced that the majority of the people who would make such laws are any more knowledgeable about the FACTS then a jelly bean would be..... They, too, are driven more by emotion and rhetoric then by logical deductions made from hard facts.

Crotalus, I appreciate your stance: I really do. As a guy who has released some corns in my day, I am curious about where you stand on some "gray areas."

I hunted the Okeetee club for quite a while. If I caught an average (for the area) corn snake, bagged it, and after looking it over determined it was a male and released it within a couple of miles, is there a danger there? What if I put several in the same bag prior? What if I drove as close to the collection spot possible to release? All are real scenarios.

I live a full state away from the Okeetee club, and have intentionally turned more than a few poor feeders and extra males loose that I produced. I live in corn snake country, but corns are scarce (comparatively), and the prettiest ones here are much more drab. No man-made recessive genes have ever existed in a single one of these animals. So I know without question when I have seen one of my animals working in the yard, hunting, or DOR. What realistic problems do you see with this: an animal from South Carolina progeny being released in North Carolina?

Extrapolate from that scenario to Rich's, if you will. I'm not here to gang up on you. Just interested on your stances.

Australia has a real problem - practically their entire fauna is endemic. Any introduced plants or animals can be very detrimental, and it has in many well-known cases. This, I believe, is the reason for their laws. However, I didn't ask for laws, I asked for evidence one way or another on releasing a native animal into it's own habitat.
I'm not trying to defend Rich, either, I'm just staying pretty neutral. As I said, If there was hard evidence, I think it would stop.

Originally Posted by elrojo

I hunted the Okeetee club for quite a while. If I caught an average (for the area) corn snake, bagged it, and after looking it over determined it was a male and released it within a couple of miles, is there a danger there? What if I put several in the same bag prior? What if I drove as close to the collection spot possible to release? All are real scenarios.

I live a full state away from the Okeetee club, and have intentionally turned more than a few poor feeders and extra males loose that I produced. I live in corn snake country, but corns are scarce (comparatively), and the prettiest ones here are much more drab. No man-made recessive genes have ever existed in a single one of these animals. So I know without question when I have seen one of my animals working in the yard, hunting, or DOR. What realistic problems do you see with this: an animal from South Carolina progeny being released in North Carolina?

Extrapolate from that scenario to Rich's, if you will. I'm not here to gang up on you. Just interested on your stances.

Hello Chip- I'm nothing close to an expert on disease or pathogen transfer, but I think that the same criticism of Rich would apply to you. It seems as if the degree of risk is still high enough that taking it simply because you had extra corns is unnecessary and irresponsible. I do understand, though, that herpers aren't generally aware that this could pose a problem and if they knew perhaps many of them wouldn't do it at all.

I would say that a responsible herper would always try their best to avoid releasing animals in areas where they weren't collected or would try to avoid collecting a surplus of animals to begin with. It's also irresponsible to release a w/c animal at the place of capture if the animal in question was collected (according to what I've read). I'm not trying to sound like the ethics police here, yet in a way I am. At the very least we can set up a dialogue of herping ethics and the duties of responsible herpers.

I don't really blame anyone who does this sort of thing ignorantly, but once a herper has been made aware of this risk and if they continue to do take it, well, they are negligent.

Originally Posted by RobbiesCornField

So... what about the endangered animal repopulation programs? Some endangered animal species are captive bred in zoos, raised up a bit, and then released in the wild to help raise their numbers. I know that's not an issue with the corn snake, but really, what's the difference? Either way, you're taking an animal that was bred in captivity and releasing it into the wild in it's own natural range.

I'm still waiting for someone to answer this question.