Culling 'side product' hatchlings

Originally Posted by Blutengel

I think we just have a very strong difference in opinion regarding what 'necessary' means regarding this subject.

I hope I misunderstood you meant me when talking about 'dictating'? Just to be sure...

Further I do not judge people for making other choices then I would regarding this subject, but I do judge the activity of cullign hatchlings for reasons I do not agree on. I hope people see the difference and my honesty/sincerity in this.

Strictly for the record...I hold absolutely nothing against you, and respect your passion on the subject. A difference of opinion is merely that, and I certainly did NOT mean to implicate you when I mentioned "dictating". I actually think that we are MUCH closer in personal opinion than what might be first inferred from how different our posts are.

Also for clarification...I don't think anyone is talking about culling normals from a clutch of "het breeders", so they only have to deal with the morphs they wanted. To me, that is akin to murder. If you don't want the normals, don't breed het parentage...buy homo parentage and breed exactly what you want. On that I think 99% of us can agree.

I also agree with duff that one should limit their breeding rather than cull "excess" offspring. If you haven't an outlet for your offspring, you should have a "backup plan" to care for the hatchlings that don't sell. However, I can't be comfortable judging someone in a negative light for a choice they made regarding this, so long as the hatchlings never suffer.

Originally Posted by jodu

If you really want to look at the ethics of culling perhaps we should first be looking at the ethics of breeding. What right do we have to breed these animals? What right do we have to bring life onto this planet just because we want to produce a pretty color or pattern? These animals have no biologic imperative to be here. We have no need for them - we have them because we want them and like them. Does that make it right to breed them, let alone own a wild animal?

So if we can somehow bypass the ethics of breeding and owning wild animals then we have no right to judge someone based on their culling practices. Until you can ethically justify breeding these animals you really have no place arguing the ethics of culling.


Joanna

That is exactly what my boyfriend said, but simply saying the discussion should not be started adds nothing to the discussion itself. I do think bringing life to earth and taking care of it as good as possible, is at least more respectfull to nature then culling it after you have brought it here on purpose.

This being said, I do think the discussion whether breeding is ethical would be very interesting.

Originally Posted by tyflier

Strictly for the record...I hold absolutely nothing against you, and respect your passion on the subject. A difference of opinion is merely that, and I certainly did NOT mean to implicate you when I mentioned "dictating". I actually think that we are MUCH closer in personal opinion than what might be first inferred from how different our posts are.

Also for clarification...I don't think anyone is talking about culling normals from a clutch of "het breeders", so they only have to deal with the morphs they wanted. To me, that is akin to murder. If you don't want the normals, don't breed het parentage...buy homo parentage and breed exactly what you want. On that I think 99% of us can agree.

I also agree with duff that one should limit their breeding rather than cull "excess" offspring. If you haven't an outlet for your offspring, you should have a "backup plan" to care for the hatchlings that don't sell. However, I can't be comfortable judging someone in a negative light for a choice they made regarding this, so long as the hatchlings never suffer.

You are right, I can 100% agree on this! But also for the record, I do not judge a person in a negative light for the culling, but only the decision to cull and the culling itself.

Thinking on it... to create new combinations, one cannot buy homo animals... hence breeders wanting to do so, should then always have a back up plan.

What I am saying is that the human species has been breeding and raising all forms of life for a variety of reasons, and the most common one is to eventually kill it. And that we also have the ability to treat our own kind with as little or even less regard. Do I feel it's right? No, but I can also see why that particular nation would do such a thing. In their current situation, they are barely able to maintain the current poor standard of living. Double their population, and that wouldn't take long, and that increased population would not be able to survive. We do the same thing with certain wildlife species in areas where their population would easily and rapidly surpass the habitats ability to support it. It's a natural occurrence in nature (I'm sure most are familiar with the lemmings) but sometimes we have to intervene (open a season on does to help cull the population), especially in habitats that are not longer "natural" (before we arrived on this continent, there was nowhere near as much open fields for deer as there is now).

With all the captive breeding of cornsnakes, is the population far greater than it would be if humans did not keep the species as a pet? I would think it probably is, especially with all the recessive morphs that would normally not survive in the wild. Will I actually cull all those normal hatchlings I produce? Probably not. Should I not breed as many snakes as I have to reduce my load? Possibly, but then, I doubt it. Culling is an option for me, and I really only using myself as an example for this discussion.

There are many reasons for culling. It all depends upon the what and why in each individual case. Sometimes, it is for the individual's best interest, as in the hatchling with a severe birth defect. Sometimes it is for the best interest of a particular group, as in the deer population in a particular reserve. Then it may be for the best interest of an even larger group, or the species as a whole, as when a contagious disease is involved. A cattle breeder may not be happy about having to cull his entire herd of 10,000 cows, but if it will contain the anthrax outbreak and prevent the loss of 10 million cows, it's worth it.

Originally Posted by Blutengel

Thinking on it... to create new combinations, one cannot buy homo animals... hence breeders wanting to do so, should then always have a back up plan.

It is one of those considerations that needs to be made if one wishes to "discover" something new, or put together a new combination.

I plan on my first pairing next spring. I expect MANY different combinations, including a quad that I'm really interested in. But I already have in place a number of different options regarding what will be done with all the hatchlings that are not "what I want", but ARE a necessary "by-product" of the pairing. And none of them will be culled for any reason except serious health issues.

But I do believe that this particular aspect of breeding snakes is overlooked FAR too often, leaving people unprepared to cross the bridge WHEN it arrives...because it will, inevitably, arise in the "career" of every breeder whether producing 1 or 1,000 clutches every year. Ultimately, everyone in the breeding game WILL have to deal with the situation of euthanizing offspring at some point...

And knowing just how well most of the pet stores care for their cornsnake hatchlings, and all the wonderful advice that is provided by these stores on their care, you could really argue the point that any breeder that sells his offspring to these stores is in effect culling them as most of them are not going to survive.

Originally Posted by Susan

What I am saying is that the human species has been breeding and raising all forms of life for a variety of reasons, and the most common one is to eventually kill it. And that we also have the ability to treat our own kind with as little or even less regard. Do I feel it's right? No, but I can also see why that particular nation would do such a thing. In their current situation, they are barely able to maintain the current poor standard of living. Double their population, and that wouldn't take long, and that increased population would not be able to survive. We do the same thing with certain wildlife species in areas where their population would easily and rapidly surpass the habitats ability to support it. It's a natural occurrence in nature (I'm sure most are familiar with the lemmings) but sometimes we have to intervene (open a season on does to help cull the population), especially in habitats that are not longer "natural" (before we arrived on this continent, there was nowhere near as much open fields for deer as there is now).

With all the captive breeding of cornsnakes, is the population far greater than it would be if humans did not keep the species as a pet? I would think it probably is, especially with all the recessive morphs that would normally not survive in the wild. Will I actually cull all those normal hatchlings I produce? Probably not. Should I not breed as many snakes as I have to reduce my load? Possibly, but then, I doubt it. Culling is an option for me, and I really using myself as an example for this discussion.

There are many reasons for culling. It all depends upon the what and why in each individual case. Sometimes, it is for the individual's best interest, as in the hatchling with a severe birth defect. Sometimes it is for the best interest of a particular group, as in the deer population in a particular reserve. Then it may be for the best interest of an even larger group, or the species as a whole, as when a contagious disease is involved. A cattle breeder may not be happy about having to cull his entire herd of 10,000 cows, but if it will contain the anthrax outbreak and prevent the loss of 10 million cows, it's worth it.

But do we breed lemmings, put hem in nature and then cull them? No, we cull the ones nature produced too much....

Should China not better put loads of money in teaching about birth control or only neuter parents with 1 kid so they cannot have more? Better then killing kids these parents personally might be able to bring up. But I do not feel like getting into abortion and stuff, cause I feel that coming....

Originally Posted by Susan

And knowing just how well most of the pet stores care for their cornsnake hatchlings, and all the wonderful advice that is provided by these stores on their care, you could really argue the point that any breeder that sells his offspring to these stores is in effect culling them as most of them are not going to survive.

That is why I put in the pet shop option... in corn breeder utopia pet shops would not sell corns, people with no interest to breed or buy high end morphs would buy the left overs of the high end breeders and everybody would be happy... I do not say I know how to solve the problem in practice, if there is a problem anyway... if we created an over population, first thing to do would be to stop breeding, not to keep producing and cull the ones we do not 'like'.

I think it's morally wrong to create animals and then kill perfectly healthy specimens that don't meet your expectations. That is disgusting. If you don't have an outlet for them- or should I say, don't bother to find an outlet for them- you shouldn't be breeding. Each one is a living, breathing creature; a normal has just as much value, in life, as a Cinder. It's inhuman to think otherwise.

Nanci