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Miscellaneous Corn Snake Discussions This is a "none of the above" forum. All posts should still be related to cornsnakes in one form or another, but some slight off topic posting is fine.

View Poll Results: Culling hatchlings:
is a responsible thing to do when they are deformed/weak and have no chance of a decent life 156 73.58%
1 + when they are 'side products' and end up in pet shops, overflowing the market 5 2.36%
1 + when hybrid hatchlings can be mistaken for pure, threatening the mass market with their genes 9 4.25%
1 + 2 + 3 26 12.26%
is ok when..... (see my post) 2 0.94%
is never a good thing to do, even a deformed/week hatchling should only die by its defect 14 6.60%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

Culling 'side product' hatchlings
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Old 04-09-2007, 02:23 PM   #61
tyflier
Blutengel--

You keep mentioning the respect and care which feeder mice recive, and use that as justification for feeding them off. Most breeders of snakes take exceptionally good care of their animals. So, if the breeding project produces offspring that do not meet the breeder's standards...ANY standards, regardless of what those standards are...shouldn't he/she feel justified in providing those sub-standard animals to their other snakes as above-standard food?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your posts, but it seems to me that anyopne that goes through the trouble to raise adults, breed them, incubate them, care for them, and hatch them, pretty much has the right to do with them whatever they want to, providing the animals never suffer and are treated humanely up to the point of death. And I pretty much feel this way about ANY animal...but please...let's not make the comparison to humans again. I really think that is just a completely different topic...
 
Old 04-09-2007, 02:45 PM   #62
kathylove
I hate waste...

Most animal breeding projects are actually farm animals for food, and culled animals probably become food for something, unless diseased and dangerous to feed.

But even if I bred cats or dogs, I would offer euthanized, culled animals to python breeders rather than waste them. In fact, I hate it that animal shelters euthanize so many cats and dogs but are not allowed to offer the dead animals to some good use, such as food for pythons or mink farms or some such use.

I may not quite understand your posts correctly (Bluetengel). But why does it matter if somebody intends to breed reptiles (or maybe frogs, guppies or other tropical fish, etc) for fun and genetic breeding projects, and they decide to cull out 1/2 of their "worst" progeny and feed it to other animals - OR - somebody who raises frogs for froglegs (human food) or fish for food or even snakes for animal food, and culls almost 100% (except replacement breeders) and uses them for food? I just can't see a lot of difference.

Are you saying that because the main purpose of the hobby breeder is breeding for fun and not food, that it "bad" to feed their progeny off as the breeder desires, but that if the breeder is intentionally breeding a species for food, then feeding the progeny to people or other animals is ok?

Maybe I don't quite understand, but it seems as if that is what you are saying. Or maybe you are saying that it is ok to feed off the culled animals if you can make use of them, but it is bad to cull them (kill them) if you will be wasting them.

Please clarify.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 02:53 PM   #63
Vinman
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathylove
Most animal breeding projects are actually farm animals for food, and culled animals probably become food for something, unless diseased and dangerous to feed.

But even if I bred cats or dogs, I would offer euthanized, culled animals to python breeders rather than waste them. In fact, I hate it that animal shelters euthanize so many cats and dogs but are not allowed to offer the dead animals to some good use, such as food for pythons or mink farms or some such use.

I may not quite understand your posts correctly (Bluetengel). But why does it matter if somebody intends to breed reptiles (or maybe frogs, guppies or other tropical fish, etc) for fun and genetic breeding projects, and they decide to cull out 1/2 of their "worst" progeny and feed it to other animals - OR - somebody who raises frogs for froglegs (human food) or fish for food or even snakes for animal food, and culls almost 100% (except replacement breeders) and uses them for food? I just can't see a lot of difference.

Are you saying that because the main purpose of the hobby breeder is breeding for fun and not food, that it "bad" to feed their progeny off as the breeder desires, but that if the breeder is intentionally breeding a species for food, then feeding the progeny to people or other animals is ok?

Maybe I don't quite understand, but it seems as if that is what you are saying. Or maybe you are saying that it is ok to feed off the culled animals if you can make use of them, but it is bad to cull them (kill them) if you will be wasting them.

Please clarify.
another wise post from the birthday girl
 
Old 04-09-2007, 03:01 PM   #64
Vinman
The only time I cull is when I have sickly , highly deformed , or stuborn non feeders, they go to my dragons and the same goes for my dragons tey got to some of my corns that are out of my main collection.

I will be breeding hybrids this year anything that looks too pure will be culled. As to preserve pure lines of snakes. Doing my best to make sure that there are less of thoes post where some asked, what is it , what kinda of corn is this , Not talking about the threads that people found wild caught snake.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 03:10 PM   #65
SnakeAround
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathylove
Most animal breeding projects are actually farm animals for food, and culled animals probably become food for something, unless diseased and dangerous to feed.

But even if I bred cats or dogs, I would offer euthanized, culled animals to python breeders rather than waste them. In fact, I hate it that animal shelters euthanize so many cats and dogs but are not allowed to offer the dead animals to some good use, such as food for pythons or mink farms or some such use.

I may not quite understand your posts correctly (Bluetengel). But why does it matter if somebody intends to breed reptiles (or maybe frogs, guppies or other tropical fish, etc) for fun and genetic breeding projects, and they decide to cull out 1/2 of their "worst" progeny and feed it to other animals - OR - somebody who raises frogs for froglegs (human food) or fish for food or even snakes for animal food, and culls almost 100% (except replacement breeders) and uses them for food? I just can't see a lot of difference.

Are you saying that because the main purpose of the hobby breeder is breeding for fun and not food, that it "bad" to feed their progeny off as the breeder desires, but that if the breeder is intentionally breeding a species for food, then feeding the progeny to people or other animals is ok?

Maybe I don't quite understand, but it seems as if that is what you are saying. Or maybe you are saying that it is ok to feed off the culled animals if you can make use of them, but it is bad to cull them (kill them) if you will be wasting them.

Please clarify.
I do see the thin line, but in case of feeding off hatchling snakes too others animals (which are often especially kept for that purpose) it is used as an excuse to make culling the animals look less 'bad'.

In other breeding business, feeding off side product animals is not possible, so they get wasted and people cannot use the 'excuse' that they feed other animals. I do think that breeders using this excuse in snake business, would start wasting side products instead of saying; 'Hey the do not feed other animals so they have no use and out of respect for nature I stop producing these side products.' when there was no possibility to feed them off.

Further, feeding off the hatchlings also prevents the breeders from having to manually kill them personally. I do think that is another welcome side effect of being able to feed them off; you look better and you do not have to kill them personally. If you feed them to animals, at least be honest and admit is is for your own advantage and not to respect nature. Probably some breeders do so but I somehow think others do not.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 03:18 PM   #66
SnakeAround
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinman
The only time I cull is when I have sickly , highly deformed , or stuborn non feeders, they go to my dragons and the same goes for my dragons tey got to some of my corns that are out of my main collection.

I will be breeding hybrids this year anything that looks too pure will be culled. As to preserve pure lines of snakes. Doing my best to make sure that there are less of thoes post where some asked, what is it , what kinda of corn is this , Not talking about the threads that people found wild caught snake.
But if you are so against conteminating the market, why breed hybrids at all? Does this not smell like hypocrisy? Any hybrid could conteminate the market. Or do you cull adults if you do not need them anymore?
 
Old 04-09-2007, 03:27 PM   #67
Roy Munson
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutengel
Further, feeding off the hatchlings also prevents the breeders from having to manually kill them personally. I do think that is another welcome side effect of being able to feed them off; you look better and you do not have to kill them personally. If you feed them to animals, at least be honest and admit is is for your own advantage and not to respect nature. Probably some breeders do so but I somehow think others do not.
I've culled corn hatchlings and fed them to kings, but I euthanized the hatchlings first. The hatchlings I offered were f/t at that point.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 03:42 PM   #68
SnakeAround
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy Munson
I've culled corn hatchlings and fed them to kings, but I euthanized the hatchlings first. The hatchlings I offered were f/t at that point.
So you are brave enough to do it yourself if you have to, kuddo's for that!
 
Old 04-09-2007, 04:01 PM   #69
chausies
I'm glad to see that Kathy Love, long-time respected snake breeder, has taken the time to post in this discussion. I'm also glad to see that I'm not the only one confused by some of the statements made here. I think that Blutengel was saying that it's OK to feed off snakes originally intended for food, but not snakes that were bred for colors/pets/breeding purposes? I'm lost as to the distinction here. I don't think that our breeding goals matter to the snakes much. If you take a hatchling from a clutch of snakes that were specifically bred to be feeders for hungry kings, and you take a hatchling of the same color from a clutch of corns intended to be pets, I very much doubt that you could tell the difference. I know that the snake doesn't make this distinction. If it's wrong to feed a healthy snake to another snake then it's always wrong to do so (taking deformed snakes out of the equation here). If it's wrong to feed a healthy snake to another snake then it is equally wrong to feed a healthy mouse to a snake. I really don't see the difference here. Snakes eat mice, rats, birds, snakes, lizards, eggs. As long as we are feeding them their naturally intended diet, there is no difference between the species that they are fed. I adore the mice that I raise, they are not bred just to be food for another animal, and I find it rewarding to breed an animal for excellent quality, health, and good temperament. Yet, mice are a snakes natural prey. My mice have a much better life than mice bred strictly as food. I imagine that the same holds true for snakes bred strictly as food versus pets. So, why is it better or more acceptable to breed an animal strictly for food and feed it to another animal than it is to raise an animal to be the best quality possible and keep/sell the best ones for pets/breeders and cull the rest? A snake is a snake when it comes to becoming food. And I have heard this argument before from mouse breeders... it's only OK to feed a snake mice that were bred strictly as food, and I have no idea why that is? Maybe some point has yet to be made on this topic? (These kinds of discussions get NASTY real fast amongst mouse fanciers, so I have no desire to ask them for clarification, lol!) Or maybe I'm missing something? Or maybe I have a somewhat unique perspective since I raise both predator and prey, and adore them both equally?

I agree with Blutengel on some aspects of this conversation - in that I don't agree that culling hybrids that do not conform to a desired look is any better than culling hatchlings because they are not a desired color. There may be a difference between the two situations, but I don't think that one is a better reason than another. I also don't believe in killing animals needlessly (I've been a vegetarian since I was 16 years old, because I don't need to kill animals for my nourishment and because chickens and cows and goats make great pets .) But I am clearly not getting something here.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 04:16 PM   #70
kathylove
Exactly!

I just don't get the distinction either. I think it is just a human emotional response to getting attached to pets, but not to food animals. But I am not entirely sure I am exactly getting it either.

I hate to see animals die for no reason with no good accomplished (such as dead shelter animals just thrown away). But I don't understand why it is a worse thing to overproduce some pet corns and feed the ones you don't like to a king (whether you feed it live or euthanize it first), than it is to raise them for food in the first place and feed or euthanize and then feed all of them off?

What about raising Burmese pythons for Asian restaurants in which people like to eat snake (or finding them in the Everglades and eating them)? I am not really aware of people specifically raising snakes for food, but that would be a possibility - good or bad? Better than eating cows, or worse?

I would not be interested in that kind of business (raising reptiles for food) because I like reptiles and would not enjoy doing it. But I see nothing inherently bad or immoral in it, since we do the exact same thing with other species. I am not a vegetarian, and consume other species all the time.

I am just not getting the distinction between whether the animal (whatever species) was conceived with the idea of it becoming a pet or conceived with the idea of it being eventually slaughtered for food. The end result is the same.
 

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