Transparent Hypo? Blue Ice?

Does anyone have any information on these hypos this guy is claiming he discovered? It's interesting, and I don't doubt that he's discovered a new form of hypo (it seems to be all too common lately), but I can't say I'd pay the asking price. The 'Blue Ice' corns seem pretty undeserving of the name... I have to use alot of imagination to even see the faintest hint of blue to them...

Thoughts? Opinions? Extra info I don't have?

Here's the links:

Transparent hypo
Blue Ice

-Kat Hall

Re:

The transparent hypo is weird looking. And I don't deny the whole hypo mess either. Maybe we'll never know the whole hypo puzzle. He may have something there. No way to tell really.

As for the "Blue Ice" corns, while they are pretty, I don't see anything other than a very nice pastel ghost.

The head does have a faint bluish colour to it, but then again so does my charcoal ghost's and he wasn't sold to me as anything other than a charcoal ghost.

I think it's just an exceptionally coloured pastel ghost corn and he's trying to make more off of it than everyone else. Dishonest dealings or clever advertising, who's to know.

I'm with you though, I'm not about to pay his asking price for what is probably nothing all that spectacular in the end.

i got to agree with you guys they dont appear to be nothin new but then you never can tell, they just look like exceptional normal hypos and ghosts, not that i am any expert but then there you go....the titles just seem a little to grand for the animals in question.

I agree with the idea that there is no way to prove what this fellow is saying. Frankly, I can't see how two breedings to two hypos (for which I would suspect there is equally deluded information as to what genetics THEY were carrying) in just two successive years, could possibly prove anything at all. Producing hets doesn't prove what your animal IS, it just proves that ONE of the parents ISN'T something. It says nothing about the heterozgosity (word?) of either parent involved. So, from a breeding project perspective, I would say that his claims are premature, to say the least.

However, from a perspective of advertisement, I would suggest that this guy IS being dishonest in his claims (whether intentionally or not is another issue we really cannot address). Why? Exactly BECAUSE what he has could not have possibly been proven through the genetic "testing" he cited. He cannot know for sure what types of hypo are floating around in his snakes, but he is selling them as a newly discovered morph based upon a supposed blue-head trait showing up in his ghosts? And he is selling his "transparent hypos" (whatever THAT means) as being "het" for "blue ice"?????

I'm sorry. Either the guy doesn't know what in the world he's talking about, or he does. If he doesn't, I would steer clear from his animals, because you could never know what in the world was in that "mix." If he does, he's purposefully being deceptive, and I would definitely steer clear of THAT!

I saw these snakes in person at a show in San Diego last year. The guy had some really nice stuff, including an amazing lav stripe. The snakes did look really great, but that is no proof that they are something different. They also had some weird eyes much like T+/T- snakes in question. The snakes did look more "blue" in person and some had tons of pink, but obviously, I wasn't willing to stick my head out and pay the price either.

I can't say I'd be surprised to see more hypo genes out there. I bet Kat will get F2 hypos that closely resemble the pictured "Transparent" hatchling.

I tried reading his description several times, but he used so many different names for things. WTF is a "Super Hypo" and how does that differ from Hypo, Sunkissed, and the "Transparent" hypo?

(Egh, I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE the names. I can't see its intestines or liver or heart, so it's not transparent. And THIS is blue. When you can hold it up 10 feet away and I see blue, I'll accept a cornsnake being called "blue" anything. Until then, it's NOT BLUE, thank you very much. )

I think it could be a legit "trait" though, based on what I've deciphered so far. My sense is that he's had this line for quite a while (maybe 10 years?) and has at least gone through the F2s with it. If he could write the story of the breeding trials in a way that made sense, it would probably help. And I'd really prefer if the original individual(s) were outcrossed to something that has no Hypo already in it... to be 100% sure it's actually its own "new" form of hypomelanism. ("I crossed it to a hypo and got hypos in the f2..." well duh...)

My questions are:

"Is this phenotype known to be caused by only a single mutation, or are we looking the combination of more than one form of hypomelanism?"

"Have progeny of this phenotype been proven to not express either known form of hypo? ('Standard Hypo' or Sunkissed)"

I hope it is something new. The more the merrier. Maybe we'll catch up with the mice people soon.

Serpwidgets said:

(Egh, I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE the names. I can't see its intestines or liver or heart, so it's not transparent. And THIS is blue. When you can hold it up 10 feet away and I see blue, I'll accept a cornsnake being called "blue" anything. Until then, it's NOT BLUE, thank you very much. )

Click to expand...

Hey Serp,
Don't beat around the bush...how do you really feel about the names??

Maybe i'm just blind or an idot (please keep comments to a minimum ) but i didn't see anything "special" about those corns....


Ken

all he is trying to do as u all may know is scam the new corn snake lovers into buying a pastle ghost.. did anyone think it could be shedding in the picture and could have been the lighting that makes it look that color? as for the tranparent hypo... loos to me that he put a gloshy cream over the snake.. maybe vasoline or neosporine? could that help? or is it just me? i could be wrong but its just me. i think hes just a scamer

JMO I would want to know a little bit more about the "Super" Hypo, especially where (more to the point, what) the parents of a super hypo were. There's been talk of "ultra" hypo corns, that may have had grey rat bred into them sometime back in the lineage to get a kind of "frosted" look...I agree with Serp on the name thing, too...Think I'm stickin' with the prettiest normals I can (hope) to find :*)

Hmm.. I definitely see something "different" in these pics. The "ghost" is IMO different from a pastel ghost, and the "hypo," especially the hatchling, is definitely a more extreme expression of hypo... it almost looks like an Amel to me.

As to whether they are special, well, I don't see stripes as special, but it's definitely a different trait than all the rest.

To sum up, I hate the names, but it looks like it's possible that this is indeed something "new." (If I hadn't seen a similar "hypo" in the flesh I'd probably be a lot more skeptical, too.) I just wish we could get more (and more decipherable) information about it.

cka, I hadn't heard of the grey rats being mixed in to make ultrahypos, any idea where more information about that (esp pics) could be found?

I dunno... the ultra hypo I have certainly doesn't look frosted. In fact, his colors are quite bold and bright... You sure that's right. cka?

-Kat

Other than the fact that the last thing we need is another form or combination of forms of hypomelanism, I have no problem with this being a new "thing." I just have a problem with animals being sold as new "things" when the evidence for their newness has not been clearly established. And to sell the hets, well that just irks me.

I mean you have an animal that is obviously hypo and looks different than your other hypos. Just how many different types of hypo would you have to breed your animal to in order for you to conclusively know that it is indeed different from the other strains of hypo? Can you even breed to all of the different strains conclusively in the first place? I mean, we don't even know for certain how many strains there are. Hypo is so confused that Rich Z. is actually considering removing the name from all of his animal, for crying out loud!

Also, how could you know for certain what you were proving in the f2 generation? I breed my hypo A to my new hypo X. If hypo X truly is distinct from the A form, all of my babies should be normals. In the f2, though, I should get some hypo As, some hypo Xs, a bunch of normals hets, and a few hypo AXs. Now, how do I tell them apart??? If we say that I can tell them apart because the original hypo X parent has a different "look" to it, I have to ask if that "look" is because of the "X" factor, or is it because of the specific linebreeding behind that parent? If it is the "X" factor, then all of the hypo babies that have that "look" are all hypo X babies. But if it is due to the linebreeding of the original parent, then any number of hypo babies could have that "look" and be hypo A, hypo X, or hypo AX ... there's just no way to tell for certain.

That degree of necessary uncertainty being clouded over with definitive terms like "het" is my sole problem with this project or any other along the same line. I just think it is either irresponsible or dishonest (depending upon the seller's intent) to be selling "hets" for a trait you cannot fully understand, let alone prove.

http://jyreptiles.com/more corns/ultra-hypo-f.jpg

link to an "ultra hypo"...Jeff Yohe could give ya some more info on this snake.

Kat....here's my disclaimer hehe...used to email JY quite a bit...He was real helpful when I was startin out...it was something he mentioned, (unless i am remembering it wrong, it happens) when showing me the linked above pic...peace

I've gotten answers via email, and I'm convinced he has done all the tests I would want to do before I could say with reasonable certainty that:

A- it's incompatible with the current two "known" strains.

B- it is heritable and appears to be a simple-recessive trait.

I've asked him if he'd like to post here about it, or if he'd mind me relaying the information here for him. Until then, I'll just leave it at that.

I still have questions, but I guess they'll all be answered soon . . .

Another hypo??? Just what we all needed!

In reference to the Ultra Hypos, I believe Jeff Yohe got them from me, and I seriously doubt I would have told him they were some sort of hybrid.

I got them from Mike Falcon and grilled him unmercifully about their ancestry. He said they came from a wild caught animal that he at first thought might be some sort of integrade with the yellow rat (I don't remember the locality he said the wild caught came from, but I am under the impression that Mike lives in mid latitude Florida, and gray rat snakes are just not found that far south. But he later concluded that it was an just an odd looking
corn snake. Even to this day, I have no idea how anyone can make a determination like that, other than a best guess based on reasonable assumptions.

As for the frosted look, no one needs to hybridize to get that look. My original Miami Phase corn I got back in 1978 had that look and it is not at all uncommon in many of my lines of corns.

Finally, I have been breeding the Ultra Hypos for years now and have not seen any evidence that would lead me to believe they are any sort of hybrid or integrade. Otherwise they would not be in my collection right now. I have had animals in the past that I felt very strongly were not pure corns, and once making that judgement, got rid of them as soon as possible.

So I just have to ask this: How can someone jump to the conclusion that an animal is a hybrid based on the scanty evidence they have at hand? By appearances? I have had animals for years, studying their actions and mannerisms before coming to a conclusion that may or may not be right. But I decided to err on the side of caution. Appearance alone is just not enough.

As such, I want someone to look at the below photo and in one breath tell me that the photo that Jeff Yohe took of an Ultra Hypo "looks" like a hybrid yet the photo shown here of a Sunkissed corn does NOT "look" like a hybrid:



And tell me with a straight face what criteria you are using for that sort of judgement.

Either you (1) can or you (2) cannot tell from appearances. Pick one (1/2): ___

1 - look at the snout, shortened considerably

what a nice snake though, hey you don't like hybrids? I'd be happy to take that one off your hands for you, just send him to...

Hehe... I think the closest hybrid that okeetee reminds me of would be a jungle corn. The headpattern and snout length atleast look somewhat similar. That having been said, I've yet to see a sunkissed okeetee with a /normal/ headpattern. Of course, that's only a hatchling... the adult sunkisseds I've seen look like typical corns in terms of headshape.

-KAt

That story about the scientist sounds phony

I've hunted the "Hunt Club" for years and I can tell you that if a scientist spent only 1 month road cruising in front of the place he'd be lucky to get 2 animals.
So how's he get all this "1 of of 20 look like this or that" data? The whole thing sounds flaky. And those animals don't look much differnet than what others already have for sale anyway.