Culling 'side product' hatchlings

Originally Posted by Blutengel

But don't you see that people use it as an excuse in the discussion? We are discussing wether it is ethical to 'overproduce' and cull animals, not wether it is better or worse to feed them off. To me, the fact that they are fed off, should not have to be part of the discussion, but people point that out to minimise their actions IMO. They might not use it as an excuse to be able to run more projects, but that is around the corner if you have these living waste bins available... that is a thin line to cross.

Now...this is different...I am NOT discussing the purposeful breeding of "excess" snakes, and then justifying it through feeding them off. That is not what I Have been discussing, and could very well be the root of our misunderstandings.

I am not, and will not, defend the actions of somebody that irresponsibly and purposefully breeds more animals than they are prepared to care for or are capable of selling. That in itself is irresponsible, IMO, and I thought that was made clear earlier. Certainly it would be FAR more "ethical" or "moral" to simply limit your breeding. On that I am pretty sure we are in agreement.

Justifying irresponsible behavior is not going to fly, in my book, regardless of the outcome. However, this is not the situation that Susan mentioned, nor is it the situation which Vinman mentioned. And certainly it is not the situation which I have been defending...

Originally Posted by tyflier

Blutengel wrote:


I don't agree with this statement.

For example(and I apologize to Vinnie for using him as an example...I mean no offense)--Vinman decided he wants to breed hybrids, but he wants to cull any that resemble purebloods of either species. I don't agree with this practice, and it is NOT a practice that I would do(though admittedly, I am not sure HOW I would deal with it). HOWEVER...I will defend the ethical value in Vinman's decision, because I DO believe his decision to do this is one which is made with responsibility and the benefit of the animals in mind, even if it's a difficult task for him to accomplish.

So while I personally do not agree with his decision to do this, I DO agree that it is a responsible decision being made, and I will defend this decision as an ethical one, even though I wouldn't do it myself.

In this instance, I may very well defend his decision from the perspective of doing it myself in conversation. That is NOT to say that I am "on the fence" as regards the issue, and it is also not to say that it is a practice I would do for my own stock. It is ONLY to say that I understand the reasoning, I RESPECT the reasoning, and I feel that reasoning is, in itself, ethical and justifiable for the ends will be.

Does that make sense??

I do understand you, but I still think that if he would really be concerned about the market, he shoud not breed hybrids, plain and simple! He KNOWS that any hybrid threats the market, but he STILL decided he can let live the ones he wants to live and still call it respectfull and ethical.... that would be like me crossing my bairdi and yellow rat, kill most of their hatchlings (since they are way hard to sell) and keep 2 only because I want to see what they looks like as adults and breed a beautiful line to sell to the same market in a couple of years. Would you seriously consider that a decision made by reasons of ethics? It might be called responsible considering protection of the market, but ethical? No way....

Originally Posted by Blutengel

But don't you see that people use it as an excuse in the discussion? We are discussing wether it is ethical to 'overproduce' and cull animals, not wether it is better or worse to feed them off. To me, the fact that they are fed off, should not have to be part of the discussion, but people point that out to minimise their actions IMO. They might not use it as an excuse to be able to run more projects, but that is around the corner if you have these living waste bins available... that is a thin line to cross.

The problem I have with using the word "excuse" here is that it implies that there is something that needs excusing. Maybe some have presented the feeding aspect as a justification for culling excess or sub-standard hatchlings, but I think a lot of people (including me) don't feel that we need to make excuses. To whom do I need to justify my decision to use my own criteria for assessing culls? We can leave the kingsnakes out of it. If I want to humanely euthanize hatchlings based on my cull criteria and flush them down the toilet, I don't need to justify it to anyone.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tyflier again.

Excellent points! You took the words out of my mouth.

Originally Posted by Roy Munson

The problem I have with using the word "excuse" here is that it emplies that there is something that needs excusing. Maybe some have presented the feeding aspect as a justification for culling excess or sub-standard hatchlings, but I think a lot of people (including me) don't feel that we need to make excuses. To whom do I need to justify my decision to use my own criteria for assessing culls? We can leave the kingsnakes out of it. If I want to humanely euthanize hatchlings based on my cull criteria and flush them down the toilet, I don't need to justify it to anyone.

But that is what I am talking about, it hit the wrong button in me that some people seem to use it as an excuse, or that is what I feel.... if you do not use it as an excuse, leave it out of the discussion indeed

Originally Posted by tyflier

Now...this is different...I am NOT discussing the purposeful breeding of "excess" snakes, and then justifying it through feeding them off. That is not what I Have been discussing, and could very well be the root of our misunderstandings.

I am not, and will not, defend the actions of somebody that irresponsibly and purposefully breeds more animals than they are prepared to care for or are capable of selling. That in itself is irresponsible, IMO, and I thought that was made clear earlier. Certainly it would be FAR more "ethical" or "moral" to simply limit your breeding. On that I am pretty sure we are in agreement.

Justifying irresponsible behavior is not going to fly, in my book, regardless of the outcome. However, this is not the situation that Susan mentioned, nor is it the situation which Vinman mentioned. And certainly it is not the situation which I have been defending...

Ah, now we are getting somewhere...

I did say the situation Susan described as an example, is different. But I still think killing pure looking hybrids is not an action to solve a sudden problem, but a planned action to be able to satisfy your 'need' to breed hybrids and still be able to say you protect the market, while in reality you do not...

Look there are ton of wholesalers that take surplus animals . you might not make a whole lot but there is a outlet for un wanted herps, culling is the last resort. But when breeding hybrids you are breaking the rules of nature. So to make sure you dont add to the problem of tainting pure breeds, it is your responseabilty to make sure they dont mess up the gene pool. So i say cull. if it is dead it cant breed. If it is a male I could fix it by cutting off the hemapenis, but I feel that is more crule to live your whole life with out your genatils and have a sex drive.
Now I make a living selling herps culling cuts into my profit. So I want to cull at least as possible, so what I do is to breed hybrids so they dont look like pure anything. The whole purpous for making hybrids is to make something diffrent that dont exsits in nature.

I breed african cichlids since 1980 you couldn't get pure red zebras they all were aini or crimson reds which are hybrids. Not untill 1995 I could get pure reds zebras. I bought not only the red ones but the orange blotched ( OB ) fish which are only 5% of the wild population and paid a arm and a leg for them. But when people come over the house I tell them that is what a real red zebra looks like . The hybrids are more deeper colored than the pure . But I got the real fish the one that comes from out of the lake. I get more money for my fish because most people want a fish as it is in nature. I'm making a albino red and a albino red ob useing my pure fish. Need stuff for the petshops

Originally Posted by Blutengel

What started this thread was me

"There is no reason to kill pure breeds even if they hold new genes or a new combo of genes they can go to a wholesaler."

Vin, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt; this sounds like pure breeds have more right to live then any not pure animal in any case... can you further clarify me what you mean, since your PM to me showed that you are able to tell things the right way so we do not get you wrongly...

Originally Posted by Vinman

this the way I look at it these animals would not been breed toghether in nature I have RESPONCEABILTY for these monsters . They are un-natural snakes there for as in nature I will be selecting who lives and passes on their genitc makeup and who will not make the grade, it is life . Some live and some die thats that. I am their god in the un natural world.

I know it just be to hard for some of you to pathom but we are all living things . All fauna what gives us any reason to say a roach ,rat, mouse or any living thing has the right to live over another. So on that thought I feel that a human life is worth less than any animal. and we as humans are the parisite of the earth. we are the most destrocitve organisem on the planet. Life is crule and death is life without death there is no life. Pretty grim but true

So we are parasites AND gods in the world of monstereous hybrids? Man, you can write a fantasy novel... Why would you want to produce monsters anyway? I am very tempted to say because of money then... or out of curiosity perhaps? Or just because you can?

I'm still looking for an answer on this one Blutengel.

I have a colony of mice that my breeding goals are to create mice with gentic mutations that are pretty to look at and have temperments that are pleasant as well.

I also have colonies that my breeding goals are just to have females that produce as many healthy pinks as possible.

So is it wrong to to feed off some from one colony and not the other? Do I have to place all the mice from the first colony with pet homes if they don't meet my breeding goals? I am obligated to just breed those mice less instead of feeding them off? All because my goal for that colony was to make nice pet mice?

Originally Posted by Vinman

Look there are ton of wholesalers that take surplus animals . you might not make a whole lot but there is a outlet for un wanted herps, culling is the last resort. But when breeding hybrids you are breaking the rules of nature. So to make sure you dont add to the problem of tainting pure breeds, it is your responseabilty to make sure they dont mess up the gene pool. So i say cull. if it is dead it cant breed. If it is a male I could fix it by cutting off the hemapenis, but I feel that is more crule to live your whole life with out your genatils and have a sex drive.
Now I make a living selling herps culling cuts into my profit. So I want to cull at least as possible, so what I do is to breed hybrids so they dont look like pure anything. The whole purpous for making hybrids is to make something diffrent that dont exsits in nature.

What do you do with adults you do not want to breed with anymore? you do sell hatchlings that do not look pure, right? Why does it not get through your barricaded that these also threaten the market? Tell me why they would not....