Culling 'side product' hatchlings

I have to add here to this discussion. What happened with Lil has given me a wonderful pet snake, who I am hoping has no long-tern effects from her bad start. Right at the start though, I did ask myself whether euthanasia would be an option. If I hadn't been able to get her feeding and growing, I would have euthanised Lil. I'll never sell her, so she won't get the chance to pass along any problems. Being a female, there is the chance that as she matures she will produce slugs that could be too much of a strain on her system.
In the case of Skooge, I feel that I did the wrong thing in helping her along once her kinks became obvious. If she had been my snake, I would have euthanised her once the extent of her deformities became evident. She was not mine, and her owner didn't want me to euthanise her if she started eating, which she did. The decision wasn't mine to make.
Now I have the hope that I will have eggs that hatch this year. I will not hesitate in culling kinked or bad-feeding hatchlings. I have an outlet for my small-scale breeding, but my experience with Skooge has taught me that I will only have control of what happens to the snakes up to the point that they belong to someone else. I cannot keep every poorly snake myself, so any that are not healthy wll be culled. As I've bred gerbils guineapigs and finches in the past I know that not every animal is meant to survive.
I would never condemn anyone else culling for their own reasons. I kept Lil alive for my own selfish reasons, for my emotions. I did not do what was best for her, I did what was best for me.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to diamondlil again.

For being sincere and able to admit you made a decision you would not make again.

But darn, y'all have already said most of what I would have said, lol! But I am going to say it again anyway, in my own words.

I only cull for health problems because I have so many beginner customers who want healthy, inexpensive, pet quality snakes ("by products of other projects") that the normal or "not so pretty" babies will all find homes.

A few of you have already touched on the ideas below, but to me they are "the meat" of the issue, so I will also mention what I feel is important.

1. Why is the life of a "farmed snake" more important than the lives of farmed mice, cows, chickens, etc, that are raised for food for us or our pets? If somebody wants to breed snakes to feed other snakes, or culls them for whatever reason they choose, why is that worse than farming other species expressly to kill them?

Although I don't keep kingsnakes anymore, all of my culled snakes go to feed kings or coral snakes - I really hate waste. I would guess that other corn breeders also feed their culls to their own kings or to other hungry snakes they know about.

I personally would feel terrible just raising my corns to feed kings (I happen to like corns better than I like mice!). But I would not think it less ethical to raise the corns for food than to raise other animals for food - just less cost effective, lol! As long as the culled snakes are humanely euthanized, used, and not wasted, I don't see much difference.

2. Selling to pet shops or to beginners. Unfortunately, it is a fact of life that many babies of every species will not make it to adulthood, whether they are captive born or born in the wild. Most in the wild will become food for something else. Many captive born will be purchased by somebody who will not take care of them properly, or will just succumb to some accident or disease.

It is the breeder's job to provide a healthy baby and as much correct information as possible, and consultation as requested. But the responsibility is not infinite. We do not live in a perfect world and can't take responsibility for rest of the life of each baby, and its progeny.

I certainly made some stupid mistakes, especially when first starting out. I STILL make a stupid mistake now and then, but not as often as when I first started. People have always made stupid mistakes and always will - sometimes through ignorance, sometimes through neglect or momentary thoughtlessness. Since this is the case, isn't it better to learn on a farm bred animal than a wild caught specimen?

I am not saying we should tolerate stupidity or ignorance or indifference. We should try to do what we can to right the situation whenever possible. But the reality is that they will occur, and I feel it is better to sell to the pet store or beginner and try to combat their ignorance, than to refuse to sell to them in hopes they will go away. I am also not saying that EVERYONE should do this if they don't want to, just that it is something to consider.

I believe that everyone should do pretty much what they want to do - whatever they feel is right. AS LONG AS THE ANIMALS ARE TREATED HUMANELY, whether the breeder chooses to raise them up, sell to whomever they want to, or euthanize them all and feed them to kingsnakes, is an individual decision, IMHO, of course.

Originally Posted by kathylove

1. Why is the life of a "farmed snake" more important than the lives of farmed mice, cows, chickens, etc, that are raised for food for us or our pets? If somebody wants to breed snakes to feed other snakes, or culls them for whatever reason they choose, why is that worse than farming other species expressly to kill them?

Food is necessary by nature if you want to keep your snakes alive. Breeding snakes for morph or color purposes, is not necessary by nature. Of course, one could just not breed snakes to not have to feed them mice, but if these mice are kept properly, they are respected and serve a natural purpose. Any breeder would feed snakes vegetables if they thrived on it, but it is just not possible... breeding something else if your prefered project produces hatchlings you'd have to cull IS possible...

Originally Posted by kathylove

But darn, y'all have already said most of what I would have said, lol! But I am going to say it again anyway, in my own words.

I only cull for health problems because I have so many beginner customers who want healthy, inexpensive, pet quality snakes ("by products of other projects") that the normal or "not so pretty" babies will all find homes.

A few of you have already touched on the ideas below, but to me they are "the meat" of the issue, so I will also mention what I feel is important.

1. Why is the life of a "farmed snake" more important than the lives of farmed mice, cows, chickens, etc, that are raised for food for us or our pets? If somebody wants to breed snakes to feed other snakes, or culls them for whatever reason they choose, why is that worse than farming other species expressly to kill them?

Although I don't keep kingsnakes anymore, all of my culled snakes go to feed kings or coral snakes - I really hate waste. I would guess that other corn breeders also feed their culls to their own kings or to other hungry snakes they know about.

I personally would feel terrible just raising my corns to feed kings (I happen to like corns better than I like mice!). But I would not think it less ethical to raise the corns for food than to raise other animals for food - just less cost effective, lol! As long as the culled snakes are humanely euthanized, used, and not wasted, I don't see much difference.

2. Selling to pet shops or to beginners. Unfortunately, it is a fact of life that many babies of every species will not make it to adulthood, whether they are captive born or born in the wild. Most in the wild will become food for something else. Many captive born will be purchased by somebody who will not take care of them properly, or will just succumb to some accident or disease.

It is the breeder's job to provide a healthy baby and as much correct information as possible, and consultation as requested. But the responsibility is not infinite. We do not live in a perfect world and can't take responsibility for rest of the life of each baby, and its progeny.

I certainly made some stupid mistakes, especially when first starting out. I STILL make a stupid mistake now and then, but not as often as when I first started. People have always made stupid mistakes and always will - sometimes through ignorance, sometimes through neglect or momentary thoughtlessness. Since this is the case, isn't it better to learn on a farm bred animal than a wild caught specimen?

I am not saying we should tolerate stupidity or ignorance or indifference. We should try to do what we can to right the situation whenever possible. But the reality is that they will occur, and I feel it is better to sell to the pet store or beginner and try to combat their ignorance, than to refuse to sell to them in hopes they will go away. I am also not saying that EVERYONE should do this if they don't want to, just that it is something to consider.

I believe that everyone should do pretty much what they want to do - whatever they feel is right. AS LONG AS THE ANIMALS ARE TREATED HUMANELY, whether the breeder chooses to raise them up, sell to whomever they want to, or euthanize them all and feed them to kingsnakes, is an individual decision, IMHO, of course.

kathy so well put, you allways put thoughts so well in writing

"...breeding something else if your prefered project produces hatchlings you'd have to cull IS possible..."

That is not always true. If you are trying to combine 2 or 3 or 4 different traits together, you will get many normal, possible hets. They may make perfectly good pets, but will be culls as far your future breeding goes.

If everyone just changed projects so they don't produce any normal, possible hets, then we would not have any new traits, since almost all started with one mutant animal that had to be bred out, producing a lot of unwanted male hets.

Originally Posted by kathylove

"...breeding something else if your prefered project produces hatchlings you'd have to cull IS possible..."

That is not always true. If you are trying to combine 2 or 3 or 4 different traits together, you will get many normal, possible hets. They may make perfectly good pets, but will be culls as far your future breeding goes.

If everyone just changed projects so they don't produce any normal, possible hets, then we would not have any new traits, since almost all started with one mutant animal that had to be bred out, producing a lot of unwanted male hets.

Ok, that is true (I even wrote that down myself in the other thread, LOL) but I guess if we would only have to deal with hets from those projects culling because of numbers would not be an issue, do you?

I guess it depends on the breeder and their individual situation. I have plenty of of customers who would like those by products. But a person with a few hundred babies and a full time job may not have the same customer base that I do.

I still do not see why it is bad for them to feed their extras to a kingsnake instead of feeding mice to the kingsnake - if they want to do that. Although I like corns better than mice, why is it "better" (more ethical?) to feed mice than corns to a king?

Anyone who keeps snakes and feeds them rodents can't really justify the "sanctity of life" argument for not culling unwanted snakes.

If your argument is merely that the animal has a right to live its life just because someone bred it, then you should apply the same argument to all of the mice and rats that are killed to feed those snakes. How is a snake any more deserving of life than a rat or mouse?

Using that justification, the snake would be LESS deserving of life than a rat or mouse because over it's lifetime it will result in the loss of life of thousands of mice and rats.

I've been breeding mice and natal rats as feeders for a while now, so perhaps my thinking is skewed, but I don't personally see anything wrong with a breeder culling any of their snakes if they cannot be cared for or sold.

If I do decide to breed any of my corn snakes next year, it will be on a very small scale so I can test the waters locally to see how hard it is to sell them either over the internet, at a show or to local pet shops. Plus, with the genetics of my older corns that will be of breeding age and size next year, I will probably end up with mostly normals and low end morphs anyway.

Originally Posted by kathylove

I still do not see why it is bad for them to feed their extras to a kingsnake instead of feeding mice to the kingsnake - if they want to do that. Although I like corns better than mice, why is it "better" (more ethical?) to feed mice than corns to a king?

It is not more ethical to feed mice to a snake, I do see that in case of breeding snakes feeding redundant animals to other reptiles at least they do not get wasted, but it is not the purpose of the breeder to breed them as food, they are a side product of something he does for his own enjoyment only.... in any other breeding business, redundant animals cannot be fed to others, so then it might be more obvious what I mean. They would be wasted...