Getting tired of it...

I'm getting frustrated with the direction this forum seems to be taking. It seems that since the blow up over the chat issue, many of the greats have gone and left the less equipped to run the show. I don't mean people like Mike, Tom, Dean, Joejr, Jazz, Susan and several more who have been around for a long time and are still the same fantastic people to talk to and share info with. I can't name them all, because I don't remember them all. I mean the ones who have come along in the past few months (or so it seems) and are picking on newcomers and claiming "troll!" every chance they get. I am on here every day and I am finding myself asking why I bother. I haven't read many appealing threads in quite some time. I am bored with the quality of threads around here and offended by some of the attacking I see. Maybe someone needs to kick my butt and get me back on track, but I'm not all that impressed with the site anymore. I'll be around, but my enthusiasm has waned.

:shrugs: I wouldn't have known there was anything different if you didn't mention it. I like the site just fine. Sorry for being contradictory. Maybe I'm just blind to the drama.

dionythicus said:

I'm getting frustrated with the direction this forum seems to be taking. It seems that since the blow up over the chat issue, many of the greats have gone and left the less equipped to run the show. I don't mean people like Mike, Tom, Dean, Joejr, Jazz, Susan and several more who have been around for a long time and are still the same fantastic people to talk to and share info with. I can't name them all, because I don't remember them all. I mean the ones who have come along in the past few months (or so it seems) and are picking on newcomers and claiming "troll!" every chance they get. I am on here every day and I am finding myself asking why I bother. I haven't read many appealing threads in quite some time. I am bored with the quality of threads around here and offended by some of the attacking I see. Maybe someone needs to kick my butt and get me back on track, but I'm not all that impressed with the site anymore. I'll be around, but my enthusiasm has waned.

Click to expand...

I know what you mean. Don't get me wrong, i think everybody on here is great, but i do see people geting put down quite a bit. I usually just avoid it.

dionythicus said:

I'm getting frustrated with the direction this forum seems to be taking. It seems that since the blow up over the chat issue, many of the greats have gone and left the less equipped to run the show. I don't mean people like Mike, Tom, Dean, Joejr, Jazz, Susan and several more who have been around for a long time and are still the same fantastic people to talk to and share info with. I can't name them all, because I don't remember them all. I mean the ones who have come along in the past few months (or so it seems) and are picking on newcomers and claiming "troll!" every chance they get. I am on here every day and I am finding myself asking why I bother. I haven't read many appealing threads in quite some time. I am bored with the quality of threads around here and offended by some of the attacking I see. Maybe someone needs to kick my butt and get me back on track, but I'm not all that impressed with the site anymore. I'll be around, but my enthusiasm has waned.

Click to expand...

You know, I haven't been a member for nearly as long as most of the "greats" around here, yourself included. But I completely understand what you mean. There seems to be a whole lot of "attacking", and ALOT of it is very personal. It simply seems uncalled for.

There seems to be alot of gangpiling based on difference of opinion. Alot of people seem to want to jump on various bandwagons, and ridicule and persecute anyone that doesn't join them, rather than discuss the various pros and cons of each different opinion.

The reality is, there are many, many different ways to properly care for cornsnakes, and the most popular ways are not the ONLY ways. Being popular and being right are not the same thing, and I think alot of people don't realize that. There is a whole world of information out there, and there are literally hundreds of different ways to care for cornsnakes, and MOST of them have the best interests and health of the snakes in mind. Just because my way is different than your way doesn't make ether one of them better or mor right than the other.

It is really sad to see so many new members completely turned away because of different opinions. These forums are supposed to be an avenue for the free exchange of ideas and opinions, and it's getting to a point where if you have a different opinion, you can really get jumped on by some of the members. And your opinion doesn't even have to wrong...just not popular.

And like you, I am not referring to those that seem to be willing to help anyone and everyone. People like jazzgeek, Roy Munson, diamondlil, yourself, fenderplayer, and a good many others...these people are knowledgable and they are always willing to help. But what is more important is that they are willing to accept different opinions without the need to make one right and the other wrong...just different. And they always do it with respect, and restraint...something that is lacking in more and moe replies, lately.

I'm not going anywhere. I enjopy this forum too much, overall. But I would like to see some attitude adjustments made.

I don't intend to offend anyone with this post, and if it DOES offend you, well...sadly it probably means I touched a nerve, and you should re-examine the manner in which you reply at times. I knwo I am among the newer members here, but...I don't think that should matter. Respect should be given, regardless of how popular your opinion is. As long as what you post isn't factually and scientifically proven to be wrong, it should be respected as an opinion and a different avenue of exploration.

This is, of course, another opinion, of which I seem to have an endless supply...

tyflier said:

You know, I haven't been a member for nearly as long as most of the "greats" around here, yourself included. But I completely understand what you mean. There seems to be a whole lot of "attacking", and ALOT of it is very personal. It simply seems uncalled for.

There seems to be alot of gangpiling based on difference of opinion. Alot of people seem to want to jump on various bandwagons, and ridicule and persecute anyone that doesn't join them, rather than discuss the various pros and cons of each different opinion.

The reality is, there are many, many different ways to properly care for cornsnakes, and the most popular ways are not the ONLY ways. Being popular and being right are not the same thing, and I think alot of people don't realize that. There is a whole world of information out there, and there are literally hundreds of different ways to care for cornsnakes, and MOST of them have the best interests and health of the snakes in mind. Just because my way is different than your way doesn't make ether one of them better or mor right than the other.

It is really sad to see so many new members completely turned away because of different opinions. These forums are supposed to be an avenue for the free exchange of ideas and opinions, and it's getting to a point where if you have a different opinion, you can really get jumped on by some of the members. And your opinion doesn't even have to wrong...just not popular.

And like you, I am not referring to those that seem to be willing to help anyone and everyone. People like jazzgeek, Roy Munson, diamondlil, yourself, fenderplayer, and a good many others...these people are knowledgable and they are always willing to help. But what is more important is that they are willing to accept different opinions without the need to make one right and the other wrong...just different. And they always do it with respect, and restraint...something that is lacking in more and moe replies, lately.

I'm not going anywhere. I enjopy this forum too much, overall. But I would like to see some attitude adjustments made.

I don't intend to offend anyone with this post, and if it DOES offend you, well...sadly it probably means I touched a nerve, and you should re-examine the manner in which you reply at times. I knwo I am among the newer members here, but...I don't think that should matter. Respect should be given, regardless of how popular your opinion is. As long as what you post isn't factually and scientifically proven to be wrong, it should be respected as an opinion and a different avenue of exploration.

This is, of course, another opinion, of which I seem to have an endless supply...

Click to expand...

Beautifully put! :cheers:

dionythicus said:

I'll be around, but my enthusiasm has waned.

Click to expand...

That's a good way to put it. And I will also agree that it seems more prominent since the chat thread exploded and made a mess. I know that I still come around and still have a great deal of respect for many people on this forum but it's not the community that it used to be. We are missing out because some of the "greats" have left IMO. I still come around on a daily basis and all but it takes a lot more for me to post now. Be it people attacking eachother or generally being ungrateful and asking the same question over that I've already answered (has happened). To take a leaf from the chat thread we're all just pissing in eachothers Wheaties. I'd love to make it better but I'm not quite sure how, so for now I'll just keep coming and looking and contributing where I feel it will be taken seriously, appreciated and not be attacked.

~Katie

dionythicus said:

I'm getting frustrated with the direction this forum seems to be taking...

Click to expand...

I feel the same way. My enthusiasm for the hobby has never been stronger, but I can't say the same regarding my enthusiasm for this forum. It's hard for me to describe my feelings about why this has happened. The trolls and agitators are only a part of it. Sometimes I wonder if it's some kind of culture shock. You and I were used to seeing many of the same, familiar members doing their usual job of making this place great. Now they're elsewhere, there are a bunch of new usernames, and this place doesn't feel like "home" anymore.

But I think there's more to it than that. I completely agree that the quality of thread topics has declined considerably in only a couple of months. The atmosphere just seems sillier around here. I think there's a good reason for that, and I hope I don't offend anyone by pointing it out. There are two categories of posters here: the hobbyist/breeders and the pet-keepers. I place myself in the first group, but I have nothing against the second. I was in that group at one time. However, pet-keepers generally do not have the same passions for the same aspects of the hobby as the hobbyist/breeders do. There's nothing wrong with that. Just as they are unconcerned with the interactions between the striped and motley genes, we are unconcerned with how often Snakie is pooping. Six months ago, the hobbyist/breeder to pet-keeper ratio was probably 40:60. Today, it feels more like 10:90. This isn't the direction I would have hoped for, but it is what it is.

Here are my own conclusions as to how I'm going to proceed. I can't imagine a time when I won't contribute here both financially and in terms of forum participation. I will never completely give up on a place that has meant as much to me as this place has. But I will engage in the serious hobbyist/breeder discussions wherever they are being hosted-- here or elsewhere. And I will commit time and resources to any place where the hobbyist/breeders' interests come first. This isn't an elitist position; it is one of preference. We're all entitled to our preferences.

:-offtopic I don't know if I deserve to be in your "fantastic people" group, but thanks anyway. You belong in that group as much as anyone does. :bowdown:

I'm tired of people referring to these "greats". What does that make me and 99% of the rest of the users of this site? Ingrates?

Even the "greats" attack.

Checkerbelly said:

I'm tired of people referring to these "greats". What does that make me and 99% of the rest of the users of this site? Ingrates?

Even the "greats" attack.

Click to expand...

I think it's a reference to the people who genuinely made this site great before you or I had ever stumbled across this place. I'm not going to list them; many of us know where they are and where to find them. You and I aren't ingrates, but we're standing on the shoulders of corn-giants. (As much as I actually believe in that last statement, its silliness should shine some light onto my perspective on the concept of "corn snake politics". )

Roy Munson said:

this place doesn't feel like "home" anymore.

Click to expand...

Well said, Dean. That is exactly how I feel. It just doesn't feel like home any more.

well, Not much to say on this subject, sometimes i can be part of the problem because i voice my opinion and sometimes that offends people. but all of you who said it doesn't feel the same.. it doesn't at all.. from 02-05 it was a nice fun forum with the usual crew always answering questions.. new people came and went rapidly after there questions were answered.

Now I noticed a few things, not about anything in perticular but just a few things, Like as soon as someone get there question answered regarding a subject, they jump to another thread and act like they have known for years and that they should be the one giving advice, while this enthusiasm isn't a bad thing, its most of the time becomes bad, or wrong advice that the NEWER members will take and then turn to even newer members and it spirals down until the "Greats" Come to tell them they are wrong, then the "new guys" argue and it starts a flame war... this is not always the case but I have seen it many times recently..

another thing that really bothered me (why i mostly quit coming here)
is the fact that people think in order to be respected they need hundreds and thousands of posts in a small amount of time.. i have been here since late 02.
and between my two accounts i have not even made 1000 posts. yet some people joined a month ago or a few months ago and have more then that, then there are some that have been here less then 1 year with 2500+,

What im trying to say is, I wish some of these people would quit replying just to see there name on a thread, when they don't know what they are talking about,

another topic would be thread hijacking.. but i have rambled on for long enough now its time to make my Grand Exit.

Bye guys! ecspecialy the old timer from beginning

I think I just missed the Chat Blowout- or just wasn't on the forum often enough to notice. When I joined, I needed specific information, which I got, and that was that, until I got a second snake. Somehow that process got me to spend more time here and get to know who people were. The way it is now is basically the way I've always known it- except in the last month I would agree the number of attacks on people has gotten out of hand.

Dean- I would put you in my top three of people who have quality things to say. I look forward to your posts, and especially your pictures.

I don't know which category I fall into- pet keeper or hobbyist. I have done my reading on genetics so I can follow a conversation and not be lost. I still have questions, sometimes. I have done a lot of research on breeding, but in a different species of snake, and I am nowhere near ready to take that step. I'm just gathering information, just in case. I only have five snakes, but I feel that I have done my husbandry research and am taking care of them optimally in a glass viv system, not being interested in a rack system at this time, only because I like to see my snakes even when they are in their vivs. What I mean is, I am keeping weight/length records, feeding slit mice, feeding in a separate container, keeping them on an approved substrate, providing the proper number of hides and the proper temperature gradient and have the proper thermometers/hygrometers/thermostats on _every_ viv, know the basic signs/symptoms of common diseases/ailments, have experienced and dealt with a non-feeder and a regurge and a bad shed- own books upon books and have read them. Am I a serious hobbyist? My intentions are to keep my snakes in the best conditions, and slowly grow my collection, and purchase animals that, while not in specific breeding scenarios at the moment, would have value should I choose to pursue that at a later date.

I participate here for socialization, and to have a backbone of resource people to go to, who I already know, who I have seen advise others successfully, should a situation arise that I need help with. But I _like_ to say, "Here's my pretty, talented snake" and have others admire him, and I like to see people's new snakes, and follow progressions of other snakes, and follow the interesting lives of other people's snakes (Steve for example!) and to follow the day-to-day trials and tribulations of feeding, refusals, what worked, what didn't, see people's new setups, see people's snakes breeding- I don't _get_ that interaction from family or friends or co-workers- you guys are like my family or close friends or whatever- that share that common interest of snakes.

Well, anyway- that is how I feel on this subject.

Nanci

And, I would like to add, Dean (and others) I _know_ you have no interest in how often someone's snakey is pooping, etc. But if I hadn't read 5000 threads on "Help my snake has regurgitated" and "Help my snake shed but half his skin is stuck on him still" I would not have had the knowledge and confidence to proceed, knowing the proper steps to follow, when it finally happened to me. Instead of being scared for my snake, I had already read the expert advice so many times it felt like old hat. So _someone_ (me) is benefitting from the repetition.

Nanci

Yes, I'm a pet-keeper and I take no offence to what Roy as stated.
I stumble upon this site not so long ago, to learn, which I did.
I didn't post that many questions because most of them have already been asked. But when I did have one... a hobbyist/breeders answered it, politely, which made you feel at home. It felt like you were reading to talking to siblings. You would get "rubbed" a little but that was home feeling. I didn't feel that the pet owner /hobbyist/breeders were an issue. A good topic would be discussed which I didn't have the experience to add too. But that alright. I was learning.
I guess that what I miss, the home feeling from members that came from KS who help start this site. a long time ago.... A group of siblings.

I have only been on this forum for about a year and even I have noticed the difference in that time frame.
I fall somewhere between the pet keeper and the hobbyist/breeder. I started off just wanting a few snakes for pets, but the enthusiasm I perceived from the hobbyist/breeders on this site stoked my interest in the hobby to the point that I now own 17snakes with goals of breeding in a few years. If it weren't for that enthusiasm to share pictures, stories, knowledge etc...from the "greats" I would still just own a few pets. (And agreeing with Dean - there is nothing wrong with that aspect at all...I started there too just as I am sure a lot of others have).

I will be the first to admit that I still have a lot to learn. I am getting better at understanding genetics, breeding processes, incubation, health issues etc. From reading the repetitive posts, from talking to some of the "old timers" in the business etc.... but I think I am on the right track and none of that would have been possible without this site and the members found here.

I miss some of the members who are no longer here. I know where they are and I do still "keep in touch" with them, but it just downright sucks that things happened the way they did and they felt the need to leave. I respect their decision, but this place seems kind of barren and lonely without them.

To me, this will always be my "cornsnake" home. My place to come chat, share pictures and stories etc. It was my introduction into this wonderful world of snakes after all. And there are still a lot of great members here that I just couldn't do without!

I hope we can still make this a great place to come visit, learn and share for ourselves and for newbies just getting started!

I remember how terrified I was for the life of my snake when I made my first post here. I try to be mindful of that feeling when I answer someone who seems to be in a panic when they first post. I was helped every step of the way by people I will always be grateful to.
Now I have the basics under my belt I enjoy finding out more about the history of the morphs, and help from people who can actually use punnet squares to predict genetic interactions.
I remember a similar thread to this a while back, and people admitting they have different flashpoints and levels of tolerance for questions that a simple search could answer
I myself am not particularly proud of my pursuance of the 2-headed corn claim, I could have let it lie, but for some reason it pushed my buttons. I'm not perfect, and I don't expect anyone else on here to be perfect either.
Overall, forums will change and grow, hopefully some of those who are missed will be back, politics are inevitable whenever there is interaction, and we don't always have to hug, agree or even like each other.

I must say that I fall squarely in the pet keeper category. I also fall squarely in the "joined in the last month" category, as well as the "answers a newbies questions" category. But I don't think that makes me a bad member, nor do I take offense to such references, because I don't see my participation here in a negative light.

I see myself as someone who spent months researching everything I could find about cornsnakes before getting one, before becoming a member here, and before contributing to questions asked by new snake owners, even though I myself am a new snake owner. I spent a TON of time and energy answering my own questions from the thousands of available resources as well as from the incredible well of knowledge that exists here. I may not be a "long-time" snake owner, but I feel that the amount of knowledge I have gained over the course of the past 6 months or so of research helps to qualify me in answering some of these "newbie questions", even though I, myself, am considered a newbie snake owner. With that said...if I don't know the answer, or I am not sure of the validity of my answer...I won't offer it. I will wait and see what the "pros" say, and hopefully learn something new.

I think there is a third category of snake owner. The pet keeper with a craving for knowledge and experience. The pet keeper with strong desires to learn everything they can from as many sources as possible about the care and keeping of reptiles and snakes. The pet keeper that KNOWS in their heart that they will, with time and effort, make the leap into the "hobbyist/breeder" category, and spends countless hours educating themselves with that goal in mind.

And quite, honestly...I place myself in THAT category, if I may toot my own horn for a moment.

As far as the course of the forum goes, I think it is sad that there are a number of people that that don't seem to respect what the owners and long-time members of this site have been trying to accomplish. Everyone enjoys an humorous conversation occasionally, and everyone certainly enjoys "letting loose" and having a whack at some silliness. But what I see happening within the last 3-4 weeks or so is far more dire than that. I see a developement of a complete lack of respect on the part of some people. And that doesn't do ANYONE any good.

P.S.--I certainly hope you "long-timers" don't take offense to me posting on this subject. I know I'm a new member, within the last month or two, and I know that I wasn't here "back in the golden days". But I hope you all also realize that I appreciate and respect everything that you are trying to do, and, for the most part, agree with the thoughts regarding the devolution of a forum of this quality.

You called him out, and were right! I, OTOH, just believed him and provided helpful links. Whatever, it was an interesting thread. If you don't want to get embroiled in these things, just ignore them! Really, I could survive, happily, reading General Chit Chat and Photos. But, as I see it, there really isn't an alternative colubrid community.

NAnci

ArpeggioAngel said:

I hope we can still make this a great place to come visit, learn and share for ourselves and for newbies just getting started!

Click to expand...

It still is! IMO.
I have been to the other sites where the so called "greats" hang out and to tell you the truth, I'm not impressed. Not that it means I don't enjoy my brief visits there, but they don't have that homey atmosphere like this place.
We were all newbies at some point, and sometimes the ego kicks in a little (or a lot), but overall, I think this is the best reptile forum going! Oh, and by the way, if I touched a nerve with some of you.........tough!
Now if you'll excuse me, I have snakes to feed and photograph! :grin01:

Chris- how come I keep seeing the message

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tyflier again.

You are wise beyond your years.

Nanci

And I agree with Mike- I love it here. Any of the touted Other Forums are, in a word, boring. Colubridly speaking.