Cohabbing Misfortunes.

Originally Posted by SnakeAround

We all put snakes in vis for our 'needs', if it is all about the snakes well being, please do not keep snakes at all. I can understand that where you draw the line is different then where I or someons else draws the line in what is good, but I think it is quite weird to act like you all think about the snakes well being only, because than you would not keep them at all or give them all at least a bath tub sized viv. Or maybe double that sizer! Don't act like you are the mother Theresa to your snakes, you do use animals for your own pleasure and keep them in limited space in non natural cages, that is a fact. You do not keep snakes because it is so good for them.

The boa that is harassed now and than by her cage mate, does not show stress signals. If she had stopped eating or had started to shed bad, I would not have co-habbed them. I kept her viv empty for a while so I could separate them if things were not going well but both still did well. I have asked again last week and any Dutch forum member says the viv is neat for two boa's. Yet I am on the look out for a new owner for the smaller one and have put her an ad for her on my FB time line for sale for a low price because I don't want to take a chance with her, since she IS being harassed now and than, I can't deny that and I do not have another suitable viv in case she does start to show stress signals. I will take her with me to the fair to try to sell her. Yet I did not see accute urgenty to separate them. Also because since the last few days the harassing has stopped.

OF COURSE we keep snakes for our own pleasure, but when we do so, we have a responsibility to care for them the VERY BEST way we know how. Knowing what we know about their solitary nature, we keep them seperate. If we don't have the space, we don't get the snake, we don't cram them together.
And I have to echo what Chip said. When they aren't showing visible signs of doing poorly, that does not mean they are doing well!! And by the time the signs show up, they have been suffering a long time.

I don't care if an entire continent co habs, it is still a crappy way to keep an animal that is solitary by nature. Just because others do it doesn't make it right.

As far as the boa goes.... you did not see the urgency to seperate...and you don't see any harassing....yippee, but that animal IS suffering. That cage IS too small. That animal should NEVER have been put in that position and should have been out of it days ago....

Originally Posted by BloodyBaroness

It is showing stress!!!! By the time it stops eating that is advanced stages of stress.

Cry me a river. How ever you want to justify jamming too many animals in a viv is fine with me, but you will never change my mind, or justify going against a solitary animal's nature.

EXACTLY!!

Those poor snakes......

Airenlow I knew that would be the reaction... but I though a better feeding response means it feels better? Separate a snake and it startes eating better: hey, he is less stressed, he feels better alone, yeah you are doing the right thing. Putting snakes together and one starts to eat better: now that is bad, there is stress from co-habbing, you are bad! Well, maybe that fussy eater that is housed alone is just very relaxed because he knows he has no competition, yet we think it is not doing very well.... Just to show how easily 'logic' can be turned around.

Ah, now you're assuming things. Non natural setups...please, come to the US sometime and be welcome in my home. You can see all natural vivs for almost all my snakes. Most of them are bioearth with live plants and even the ones that aren't have moss as substrate, live plants and natural wood for climbing (arboreals). The one cornsnake I've kept and all before it, were kept in cages with shredded aspen, branches, silk plants and plenty of space. My venomous are kept on bioearth with natural substrate and branches etc to hide behind. So before you start saying that they aren't kept naturally...many of us do. I do not think you are intentionally being cruel or otherwise...of course keeping snakes in cages is not natural. That's a given. Keeping horses in stalls is even less natural and far worse for them yet people do it every day. I'm just stating that I live with these snakes here in the wild....I know the habitat they live in, and a lot of their habits in general. Keeping them in groups because it is accepted in Europe is not in the snake's best interest. Just because "everyone" is doing it does not make it right. The fact is: They don't like it....ever. Some adapt to it better than others-fortunately for us cornsnakes thrive where others would die, but I think it's detrimental to their health and well being. I try to reduce the amount of stress my snake's are under and change things if they are under stress. I certainly do not force them to live with multiple cagemates...this practice will someday come bite you in the butt...one snake getting sick can wipe out your whole bunch. That's just the beginning. Miss closing the cage lid just right? All gone. Mis-sex the snakes you have and think they are all female? oooopsss unexpected eggs, possible egg binding or a female too small to survive the rigors of being gravid. Happens all the time...go through the search feature here and read all about it. I will refuse sales of babies to people for a few reasons:
1: they haven't done their homework and have no idea what to do with the snake if they got it
2: They are planning on feeding live. Never necessary, no benefits and certainly huge risks...I've seen it and want nothing to do with it.
3: Cohabitating: I think it's so detrimental to the health of the snake that I will absolutely not sell an animal to someone who suggests or outright says they will. I put too much effort into keeping my animals healthy and happy without someone doing that to them.
Here's my philosophy: If you want them cage them separately. If you can't afford it, don't have space for it, feel like the snake will be lonely.....don't get one
This also goes for the time to take care of extra snakes, the money for veterinary care as well. If you can't afford it, have no time for it or there are no vets to get to, you really shouldn't have the animal. It all goes hand in hand....Just saying that perhaps a change of mindset might be in order. Hopefully, people will stop attacking and use reasonable logic to convince. Education, not attack. You will never change someone's mind by making them feel they need to be on the defensive...it will actually make them hold stronger to the idea. It's human nature...we all do it. However, I think if you did some research on the species....just plain old scientific research, you will find that it is counter productive to keep multiple snakes in a space of any size.

Originally Posted by SnakeAround

Airenlow I knew that would be the reaction... but I though a better feeding response means it feels better? Separate a snake and it startes eating better: hey, he is less stressed, he feels better alone, yeah you are doing the right thing. Putting snakes together and one starts to eat better: now that is bad, there is stress from co-habbing, you are bad! Well, maybe that fussy eater that is housed alone is just very relaxed because he knows he has no competition, yet we think it is not doing very well.... Just to show how easily 'logic' can be turned around.

I'd be interested to see that now that the other one is wrapping and grabbing food more quickly if it would continue once you move it back into it's own viv. I have babies that don't really constrict for a long while and then all of a sudden they start really going to town. As far as the point...point taken. You'd have to test it to see if that was true the majority of the time. FWIW: the person that I quoted that on, also said that the animal became more active and actually put more size on. He was eating regularly before, but after just seemed to eat better.

Originally Posted by Outcast

MegF. You have snail eaters? That is awesome.

Yes I do. I have 4 of them and I am attempting to breed. So far nothing but they are liking their nice natural cage with running water and live plants. It's very cool to watch them hunt snails or just eat the f/t ones I put out. They will eat them from your hand on occasion. neat animals.

Originally Posted by SnakeAround

Airenlow I knew that would be the reaction... but I though a better feeding response means it feels better? Separate a snake and it startes eating better: hey, he is less stressed, he feels better alone, yeah you are doing the right thing. Putting snakes together and one starts to eat better: now that is bad, there is stress from co-habbing, you are bad! Well, maybe that fussy eater that is housed alone is just very relaxed because he knows he has no competition, yet we think it is not doing very well.... Just to show how easily 'logic' can be turned around.

I wasn't turning anything around...

Originally Posted by carol

The second one is, I had two non feeders that I had put together during the past two weeks because I needed the space. They were getting so puny looking I decided if they did not eat this time I would put them down. I put them both in thier feeder bags, and neither one ate. I wasn't up to putting them down that night so I just threw the both of them back in their bin still inside thier brown paper bags with a pink inside. The bags were not sealed so I figured they would just crawl out and leave the pinks. I even saw one of them come out and cruise around. Now this is hardly something I would encourage, but I didn't worry much about them going for the same meal or anything, they never ate before and I was just going to put them down anyway. I went to go get the two today to do "the deed" and they were both as fat as could be. The pinks were gone. I have left these two overnight with pinks many times before to no success. What made them finally eat beats me, but I am glad they did! I am almost wondering if the competition of having another snake helped?? Of course I am in no way advocating this. It was just something I did after all hope (I thought) was lost and now the results have me scratching my head.

Originally Posted by MegF.

I'd be interested to see that now that the other one is wrapping and grabbing food more quickly if it would continue once you move it back into it's own viv. I have babies that don't really constrict for a long while and then all of a sudden they start really going to town. As far as the point...point taken. You'd have to test it to see if that was true the majority of the time. FWIW: the person that I quoted that on, also said that the animal became more active and actually put more size on. He was eating regularly before, but after just seemed to eat better.
And a male and a female together.....I hope you're planning on eggs at some point...over and over again....Nothing like triple clutching to kill a female off before her time. I've personally seen that before as well. Had to point out to my good friend that he was slowly killing his beautiful snow corn by leaving her with the male all the time...about the third clutch she laid in a row. Nothing sucks calcium and calories out of a female like making eggs. Not good for them. He separated them.

I don't co-hab couples, serious breeders/keepers over here don't. It is done a lot however by people who don't look any further at all than what they feel is good for them, e.g. what (most) people like. e.g. being a couple with someone of the opposite sex. Those are the people who put a large (to their standards which might be 150 x 50 x 100 cm) show viv in the living room and put 2.4 mixed size corns in it, maybe with a ball python to add some variety. Lately on a fair I saw this guy with one large tub literally with a bottom completely covered by about 10 (semi)adult corns and misc. ratsnake hybrids/subspecies offering them for sale. He sold them quite soon after the fair opened and I saw him clawing the snakes with 3 or 4 in one hand into a pillow cover all together, that did upset me.. also since my adult snakes for sale are in separate boxes with wood shreddings or such since I think putting them together in a relatively small tub on a event that might bring stress to them to begin with is too much for them... I even provide them with water during the day, yet they do not sell because the other guy asks a laughably low price for his snakes or maybe has better skills in selling chat ups.

I guess my ways look to you what their ways look to me.. that is why I am not feeling offended, I can imagine what it feels like. Yet I have not seen a reaction to my question what you would do in the situation I described? Do you think you are keeping them as good as can be or would you acknowledge though maybe it can be done a tad better you are doing good enough? Do you all think that if someone cannot keep snakes at a mark 10 level, they should not? I see posts stating that one should do whatever possible they can to provide their snakes with a good life, but what if you cannot provide that 10 but an 8? And what is that ultimate level of keeping? A room sized viv is better than a closet sized one if you manage to keep it the right temps... or do you deny that? If you cannot make that happen, should you not keep a snake because you can't provide it with mark 10 level housing?

I appreciate your tone of voice Meg and your ability to admit that assuming is not the same as testing and knowing. And of course I know that not everybody over there keeps their snakes in drawers but where are all those lovely photo's than of all these spacious naturalistic vivs? Over here on the forum I see tubs with paper shredding or paper towels or with wood shreddings all the time... maybe I am wrong about what you American breeders do as a majority so I am looking forward to seeing all your set ups to change my ideas about it (not being sarcastic here). I do admit it would be easier to swallow and consider educational comments from people whom have awed me with their set ups and thus gained my respect. This forum is after all also a place for learning and who knows I might grow into your way of keeping Meg.

I don't think anyone was going all Mother Theresa on you. Barbara, I looked at your set-up in another post really don't see where that is better, more roomy any nicer then a rack system with tubs. The only difference I see in the same space you have lets say 10 vivs, 20 snakes, and us uppity no-it-all Americans have 10 vivs, 10 snakes. I'm no math expert or engineer but I wonder what the difference is sq in per viv in your set-up and a tub commonly used here? My guess is close to the same. So tell me where your way is better and more natural.

Originally Posted by SnakeAround

...but where are all those lovely photo's than of all these spacious naturalistic vivs?

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99633