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3 year old corn died and I feel terrible

Don't beat yourself up

One thing I have learned is that snake keeping is a practice. So much of it is circumstantial and we beginners can have difficulty determining what factors to consider. The experts suggest one thing, but we quickly find that it doesn't work for us and our snake. We experiment, we make mistakes, we correct (quickly), we learn. It's a practice.

To the OP, don't beat yourself up. If you successfully kept Steve for three years, and this onset was really so sudden, I have a hard time believing that you did anything wrong. Keeping Corn Snakes isn't rocket science, and they're pretty hardy little guys. It could have been (and likely was) so many things not related to your care. The only practical thing to do is grieve your loss and move on in your own time.

Best Regards.
 
One thing I have learned is that snake keeping is a practice. So much of it is circumstantial and we beginners can have difficulty determining what factors to consider. The experts suggest one thing, but we quickly find that it doesn't work for us and our snake. We experiment, we make mistakes, we correct (quickly), we learn. It's a practice.

Hmmmm....... interesting.

I wish you'd elaborate and share. I've not run across anything the Experts suggested that didn't work for any of my snakes. When I was raising a Boa, I bought a book about Boas. When I had the King Snake, I got a book on King Snakes, and now with the Corn Snake, well, I've already listed the 2 best books for corn snakes (above).

If there is something that "Does not work" we need to know.
 
Great books. I have them. DollysMom, you are a wonderful, caring lady.
Lucyjane, I just saw this thread. I am so sorry your pet died. I've been there, I know how it feels.
I've never seen what you described, but could any toxins have gotten into Steve's water or bedding?
If all the husbandry stayed the same, then I'd logically think it was something genetic, a sudden illness, or something different in his environment... pesticides, bug tape, leaning products, air fresheners,...
 
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Hmmmm....... interesting.

I wish you'd elaborate and share. I've not run across anything the Experts suggested that didn't work for any of my snakes. When I was raising a Boa, I bought a book about Boas. When I had the King Snake, I got a book on King Snakes, and now with the Corn Snake, well, I've already listed the 2 best books for corn snakes (above).

If there is something that "Does not work" we need to know.


Sure, let's take the issue of substrate. I was advised to get aspen. Personally I love shredded aspen, it's aesthetically pleasing, easy to spot clean, absorbs odors well, is easily obtained, and cheap. Problem is its often dusty and makes my corn "sneeze". I asked for advice on something else, was told eco-earth. Gave it a try, it drove the humidity in the terrarium up to 92%. Way to high. Took it out dried it and found it far more dusty than any brand of aspen I had ever bought. Was told cypress bark, tried it, humidity just as bad as Eco-earth. Now my corn's on paper towel. Humidity is good, but it looks pretty stark and bare and I'm looking to try something else.

I'm sure that shredded aspen works great for most corns, I'm sure that eco-earth is a great substrate for some people in some climates, and I'm sure that cypress bark is a god-send for some snake keepers. I had to experiment to find what works for me and my corn in my conditions. It's a practice.

I'm not saying "don't listen to experts". Their advice can point you in the right direction and save a lot of trouble. I'm thankful for all the help I've received, but advice needs to be coupled with rational judgement and observation. Had I just filled up the terrarium with eco-earth as suggested, and taken off on vacation, I'd have made a terrible mistake.

Can we get back to comforting the OP now?
 
I can tell by your answer that you've never read either book that I mentioned above. And for the record, a lot of folks "Don't use Aspen" (myself included). The books explain "Many Substrates" to use.

I was not referring to the "Pet Store Experts or the Internet Experts." I was referring to the folks that were actually true experts. (The ones that Wrote the 2 books I suggested above). Everybody with a snake "Claims to be an expert." I'm certainly not gullible enough to believe them.
 
Careful, Karl, you know I'm one of those Pet Store Experts™. ;) (And yes, big box stores really do use "expert" to describe pet care employees, with all their minimal training. :nope: )

Welcome to cornsnakes.com, where the advice is made up and the topics don't matter.

You only mentioned shredded aspen, JRLongton, typically one of the few options available in pet stores, but certainly not the only one. Did you try chipped or shaved aspen? These come in a variety of sizes, and different brands may have varying levels of dust, but honestly I've never found a dust-free dry substrate of any variety. Many keepers swear by Sani-Chip, and I've had great success using it.

I do find the controversy over pine particularly interesting. Neither book makes any mention of kiln dried vs. air dried, only to avoid it at all costs, yet we have many respected keepers in the hobby who have used kiln-dried pine flake for decades.
 
There is more than one way to do things right. It varies from country to country and from online community to online community.

There are no perfect snakekeepers since there are no perfect people. I know in some quarters I’ve been lambasted up one side and down the other for feeding my corn snakes in a separate bin. I personally think in and out of bin both have their places. And if the snake is used to one and doing well there’s no need to switch.

There are some things that are generally accepted bad husbandry. Like not cleaning and not checking for complete shed. Over and underfeeding are on that list as well. As to temp there is a pretty wide acceptable range for the warm side with many of the top breeders favoring lower temps like Dragonling said.

We are constantly learning, all of us. Being overly judgemental in our responses is not helpful to people who come here trying to sort things out or who are trying to learn to do a better job. I know I shut down when faced with the drill sergeant approach. Some people do have cognitive issues and need some hand holding. I’m both sad and ashamed that the OP wasn’t treated more kindly, especially considering the sad circumstances.
 
I can tell by your answer that you've never read either book that I mentioned above. And for the record, a lot of folks "Don't use Aspen" (myself included). The books explain "Many Substrates" to use.

Good lord. I should let it go, but...

I own and have read both books you suggested several times over, and I refer to them often.

I'll point out that both suggest aspen as the best choice, with Bill and Cathy Love explicitly recommending shredded Aspen. The same authors also suggest cypress mulch as a good choice. Soderberg does not mention cypress but does suggest coconut husk as a safe substrate. Eco-earth, with which I had problems, is 100% coconut husk.

I can't imagine why you would think I haven't read their books since I followed their exact advice, even starting with the substrate they both agreed as the being the best, which you said you do not use. Presumably because you have your own issues with it, despite what those you accept as experts state.
 
You only mentioned shredded aspen, JRLongton, typically one of the few options available in pet stores, but certainly not the only one. Did you try chipped or shaved aspen?

I also used Eco-Earth (coconut husk) and cypress mulch as they are recommended in the books by the Loves and Soderberg.

I just bought aspen chips today and poured them into the terrarium. MUCH less dust than shredded. I really like the way it flows as well, and it looks nice. I just put in in a few hours ago but so far it is holding temp and humidity the same as the shredded aspen did. Hopefully it'll work out well.

Thanks for the advice!

Best Regards
 
Chillllll everyone :dancer: I have my own thoughts but don't want to fan the flames so I'll keep quiet. I think we can all agree that new snake owners OFTEN (not always) do not do adequate research, but that keeping a snake IS a learning experience in many ways.

OP, so sorry to hear about your snake's passing. Losing a pet is always sad and we often wonder if we could have saved them.
 
I have been thinking about this post a lot. OP I can really feel for you. I'm really sorry. I also agree that it is easy to make mistakes and that we need to do our research.

I have bought one of the books and I listen to advice from enthusiasts that have 20-25 years experience. I didn't buy Daisy from a pet shop but from a snake lover with tons of experience. Everything he's told me has worked, although not 100% sure about the Aspen yet but also what he says might conflict with other people's advice. As other people have said here there are a few different right ways of looking after a snake but there are definitely some absolute no no's which will make your snake sick.

I personally don't think that you had wrong temperatures or basic husbandry mistakes especially because your snake had been thriving for 3 years. I would love yo hear an expert's opinion of what it could have been...

Daisy June 17, a butter motley corn snake
 
First let me say that pet shops get a bad rap, but there are reptile pet shops with people qualified to give good advice. The second thing is that vets are not miracle workers. If you get your corn to a vet when abnormal behavior is first noticed, the chances of recovery are good. That doesn't mean every snake will be saved.

I can only guess why the OP's corn died. Many things point to a respiratory infection. Breathing noises, low temperatures, lethargy added to the stress of shedding. The OP was away at college most of the time, and wouldn't have noticed a change in behavior early enough to take him to a vet. The last agonizing moments suggest a neurological explanation, however, it may have been just a snake fighting for breath.

Corns can survive on lower temps, but need warmth for digestion. Most of my corns stay on the cool side of their enclosures, except after feeding. Then they move to the warm side. I have never had a corn with a discernable breathing noise, unless something was blocking its nostrils, like a shard of aspen. The OP described the breathing noise as a hiss. That is most unusual, and may have been the first sign that her corn had a low level respiratory infection that became worse until the eventual death of her corn.
 
First let me say that pet shops get a bad rap, but there are reptile pet shops with people qualified to give good advice. The second thing is that vets are not miracle workers. If you get your corn to a vet when abnormal behavior is first noticed, the chances of recovery are good. That doesn't mean every snake will be saved.

I can only guess why the OP's corn died. Many things point to a respiratory infection. Breathing noises, low temperatures, lethargy added to the stress of shedding. The OP was away at college most of the time, and wouldn't have noticed a change in behavior early enough to take him to a vet. The last agonizing moments suggest a neurological explanation, however, it may have been just a snake fighting for breath.

Corns can survive on lower temps, but need warmth for digestion. Most of my corns stay on the cool side of their enclosures, except after feeding. Then they move to the warm side. I have never had a corn with a discernable breathing noise, unless something was blocking its nostrils, like a shard of aspen. The OP described the breathing noise as a hiss. That is most unusual, and may have been the first sign that her corn had a low level respiratory infection that became worse until the eventual death of her corn.
Good point. I think this is the exact answer the OP was looking for :)

Daisy June 17, a butter motley corn snake
 
We new snakekeepers should only seek advice from reliable sources and “true experts”. Can’t really argue against that proposition.

Problem is: what is a reliable source how can you tell if someone is a “true expert”?

For many long-time snake keepers and snake breeders, this is no problem. They know the good from the bad due to their long-term immersion into the snake world. But how does the newcomer determine this?

Example. I recently bought my son’s corn snake from a local reptile shop (OK, yes – it is my son’s snake, but in the deepest recesses of my mind I like to think he is mine, and a deep, dark part of me hopes that my son will lose interest one day!). This reptile shop is very well-known locally and they do educational programmes and events. Their livestock is very well cared for and everything looks to be very healthy. They have a government licence to keep poisonous species (very hard to get over here). The shop has been trading for many years. They give out care sheets and their staff publish guides on the internet and they breed some of the snakes themselves. They will talk for hours about their experiences and knowledge of all things snakey. They will direct you in very firm and certain terms about how you should care for your snake, and what equipment you need and don’t need, and roll their eyes if you even try to question their omnipotent authority by citing any other sources. They will make it very plain that if you do not follow their guidance to the letter, your snake will suffer and eventually die.

I suggest that in all of these circumstances, most beginners would find it pretty hard not to trust and follow what these people tell them to do with their snakes.

Trouble is, they ordered me to stick the heat mat onto the side of our snake’s faunarium, and without a thermostat or a thermometer (bizarrely even though they sold them). I had the temerity to suggest that I might put the mat under the faunarium with a stat and thermometer. They flatly rejected this as being wrong and dangerous to the snake, stating that (and I quote as accurately as my recollection allows) “no snake heats up from underneath” and that "the snake is the best one to determine what the right temperature is". The Munsford Plan is apparently a load of codswallop, even for breeders trying to force their breeding stock on. I kid you not.

Regardless, I bought the snake and the bundled kit they demanded I took. This was because the snake was extremely nice in all respects (best decision I ever made IMHO!) and because I would have bought all of the bits in the bundled kit anyway, and it was at a keen price and I don’t have many alternative sources where I live. I nodded and agreed to exactly as I was told, and then ordered a stat and a probe-on-a-wire thermometer when I got home, and he was noticeably happier and more sociable once these were fitted and the heat mat went under then faunarium.

I knew their advice was not very good. This is because I have been obsessed by snakes all of my life (ownership possibilities were curbed though most of my life to living with ophidiophobes and other practical problems) and I knew a lot about their habits, including how different species thermoregulate. I also have quite a bit of experience with animal husbandry in general (fish in particular). I spent a good chunk of my life in the US and I have seen at first hand snakes on the road at night soaking up the sun-generated stored heat. Lucky me, eh?

The OP would ideally have had the right care information from the start – but she didn’t, and IMHO it is hardly surprising given the many fundamental inconsistencies between what seem to be reliable sources. Had the OP gone to the corn snake care sheet and YouTube video from the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA – a pretty much self-proclaimed authority on animal welfare here in the UK) she would have been told that she must have a UV lamp and that she should turn off the heating at night. And let me tell you something else – unlike in the US, UK snakes in the wild (adders and grass snakes in the main) can only dream of summers reaching 28 degrees C – the extent that snakes need heat is not as self-intuitive over here.

This forum is a fantastic resource, and for those of us who have kept other animals and who thereby have already found out what nonsense can be spouted, we tend to research extensively and are far more ready to question the logic of some apparently authoritative sources. It would seem likely that the OP as a first-time snake keeper didn’t have the benefit of this. Her snake seems to have done well for some three years before it died, which would suggest to most folks that “if the machine ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. It does seem from what she says that she was perhaps keeping the high end temperatures a little low, and that she may not have been using a thermostat Correct me if I am wrong). Well, I suspect she was doing a lot better by her snake than many of the folks who buy baby corn snakes from my local reptile shop. Would the more experienced keepers and breeders on here expect symptoms and death from the husbandry methods described by the OP? I am of no authority to say, but I doubt it, especially after three years of pretty much trouble-free keeping.

She has taken the time and trouble to come onto this forum to find out what the problem could have been. She clearly cares and is upset. Even if she had materially contributed to the problems (and again I personally doubt that she did), what is the point of giving her a hard time for not being lucky enough to stumble upon the right guidance? First, she could surely use a bit of human kindness and understanding at a time like this. The snake is dead – the horse has bolted. Posters cannot shock / push her into a better course of action that will help this particular snake. Secondly, it will surely put her off from snakekeeping in the future and also it may have the effect of stopping others from raising questions when they suspect they might be on the wrong track. I have seen this effect many times on other forums, animal-based ones and otherwise. Being kind, respectful and setting out persuasive arguments is I would suggest a far more productive and helpful approach.

LucyJane1611 - really sorry to read about what you went through. It seems like you were pretty fond of Steve, even though he started off as an unwanted present. I hope that you will think about getting another in the future – you will have learned a lot from all of this, even if the health problem might have occurred in any event. If nothing else, would-be new snake owners reading these posts will have gained a valuable insight. Take care.
 
Thank you Strikealight. I’ve always liked being part of this community because it is generally thoughtful and kind. Even if she never posts again, I hope the OP has read some of the other posts that have both attempted to answer her questions and gave some moral support. I always look at the poster’s location and realize the status quo for care and equipment available varies by country.

And no matter how hard you study there is always something to learn. I just learned about PTFE non-stick cookware and birds, as well as it’s possible implications for reptiles. Just when you think you know...

I actually had the first vet I saw with one of my snakes tell me to put the heat pad on the side to avoid burns. I told her I had a thermostat on the UTH but she didn’t care. With the pad on the side, well you might as well have nothing because it heats nothing. My current vet and I are on the same page.

There is an old saying: you win more flies with honey than with vinegar. It holds true here as well.
 
At least here you can tell how long a person has been a member, and maybe deduce that they have been keeping snakes that long. On Facebook, everyone thinks they're the expert, and you don't have a way to verify.
 
There is an old saying: you win more flies with honey than with vinegar. It holds true here as well.

That's the nub of it. To be frank, personally I think that testy reply posts to well-meaning noobies (like me) actually cause quite a bit of harm, because it is likely to drive others away into the arms of less reliable sources and / or dissuade them from putting questions forward. No good for noobies, and no good for their snakes.

I appreciate that sometimes you have to be blunt in an attempt to head off disaster, but I think you have to approach such situations with a bit of wisdom and tact.
 
Thank you, Strikealight. You may consider yourself a novice, but your personal study effort is evident. I too try to make up for a lack of years of experience through careful observation of my snakes, and lots and lots of reading and study.
 
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