Chat room - listen up, please

Originally Posted by CMLReptiles

If you didn't notice Rich, she put a at the end, symbolizing that it wasn't to be taken in such a harsh way...isn't that what you say gintha did? hmmm...7 day ban when it's directed at you, a laugh when it's directed at somebody else. maybe now you can see it from another point of view? nah, prob not

Certainly do, and I feel I interpretted the INTENT correctly. The ATTITUDE with that slur taken in context is not really too difficult to figure out.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Well maybe I SHOULD, but I don't. Please tell me.

From 11-6-2006

Originally Posted by mary-beth

Hi Rich.
It's been another two months since I last PMed you about this - four months total. Any news?

Mary-Beth Smith

Hmm, so here is the response I gave you to that PM:

Mary-Beth, yes, I know, it's still in my in basket on my desk. Sorry, just haven't had much *free* time lately. Doesn't help matters much that I have to be going into defensive mode here on this site as well.

I will get to it as soon as I can. It's not going to be forgotten, since the stuff in the in basket stays there until dealt with.

Thanks.

THAT makes you feel ignored and uncomfortable?

Originally Posted by Mary-Beth

As for me, you should KNOW why I'm feeling ignored and uncomfortable - and it has nothing to do with anything in this thread.

Sorry, I didn't realize it was such a high priority for you. Guess I have a lot on my plate and have to prioritize things based on what I think is more important. Obviously that will not set well with some people, I guess.

I admit that when you placed the order back in early July, I have the excuse that this was smack dab in the middle of my having thousands of babies beginning their onslaught. But yes, I certain should have taken care of this in the last month when things were not so pressing. Coincidentally enough, I completed the records check last night (I had some trouble finding the records on those 1983 breeders) and have the form in an envelope sitting in the hallway for the next time I go to the post office. In any event, please send me a PM with your PayPal address and I will refund that $10 as well.

Obviously I need to consider whether offering such documents is worth the trouble they can get me into. $10 just is not worth the effort to research the records AND get someone pissed at me because I have things to do that I might consider as a higher priority to me. Seemed like a good idea at the time, though.....

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Hmm, so here is the response I gave you to that PM:

THAT makes you feel ignored and uncomfortable?

Not until I saw a thread where you laughed at someone who though you might have a sale soon. It was so funny because you are sold out of so many babies already. I would have have waited patiently for a very long time if I hadn't seen that.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Sorry, I didn't realize it was such a high priority for you. Guess I have a lot on my plate and have to prioritize things based on what I think is more important. Obviously that will not set well with some people, I guess.

A high priority? It's been four months Rich. I've only contacted you three times about it, and I only did that because I wasn't hearing anything from you.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

I admit that when you placed the order back in early July, I have the excuse that this was smack dab in the middle of my having thousands of babies beginning their onslaught. But yes, I certain should have taken care of this in the last month when things were not so pressing. Coincidentally enough, I completed the records check last night (I had some trouble finding the records on those 1983 breeders) and have the form in an envelope sitting in the hallway for the next time I go to the post office. In any event, please send me a PM with your PayPal address and I will refund that $10 as well.

Thank you for the offer but you should keep the money as long as I get what I've paid for.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Obviously I need to consider whether offering such documents is worth the trouble they can get me into. $10 just is not worth the effort to research the records AND get someone pissed at me because I have things to do that I might consider as a higher priority to me. Seemed like a good idea at the time, though.....

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said I'm pissed. I am feeling ignored, uncomfortable, disappointed, and disillusioned even - but not angry.

The only reason I even brought it up was because you didn't understand why I felt ignored. How would you be feeling right now if our positions were reversed?

I'm sorry, you didn't think the sale idea was funny. Here's a link to the post I was referring to - http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sho...64&postcount=9

Well, for those interested, here is that post:

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Sale? Sorry, but no, not likely. Things are selling out WAY too quickly and it kind of scares me to think I would be completely sold out of saleable stock way before the next year's crop is due. So there really is no incentive to have a sale on what is left.

But honestly the higher dollar animals do sell more slowly than the cheaper stuff, so save your money with that goal in mind.

No, I don't see anything in it either where I laughed at anyone. Put this thread seems just littered with people putting words in my mouth, I guess. So what was it about this post that made you feel "I would have have waited patiently for a very long time if I hadn't seen that."

Originally Posted by Mary-Beth

A high priority? It's been four months Rich. I've only contacted you three times about it, and I only did that because I wasn't hearing anything from you.

And yes, it has been four months. I am sorry that I must have given the impression that I am only busy TWO or THREE months out of the entire year. As for status reports, seriously, when I am getting ONLY 4 to 5 hours of sleep each night with the workload at that time of year?

And when you contacted me, what did I tell you each time? Probably something along the line that I am busy and will get to it as soon as I can, I would suspect. Which was the truth each time.

Originally Posted by Mary-Beth

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said I'm pissed. I am feeling ignored, uncomfortable, disappointed, and disillusioned even - but not angry.

The only reason I even brought it up was because you didn't understand why I felt ignored. How would you be feeling right now if our positions were reversed?

Positions reversed? Well since I wouldn't have to worry about it much until it came time to actually breed the animal, I seriously doubt it would concern me overly much for a couple of years. But that is just me, I guess. Heck, I have special ordered items that took me YEARS to get. But I certainly did not get to feeling "ignored, uncomfortable, disappointed, and disillusioned" over it. If I need something in a hurry, I make sure the other person knows about it. Heck, whenever I contact my programmer about doing work for me, although I normally want to get it done ASAP, I fully realize he is busy too, and I ALWAYS tell him "as soon as you can get to it". And I mean that.

And yes, my impression is that you are pissed. You don't HAVE to say it. Otherwise you wouldn't be bringing up the topic like this in an already heated discussion. Those aren't words being put into your mouth, that is my assessment of the situation. The situation being that my schedule does not allow me to do something of that nature which for only $10 can get people PISSED at me.

And no, I am sending you back your $10. I would just rather that you had it back. It's absolutely my fault I am late getting this done, and it has obviously caused you a lot of distress over it. I just don't feel right keeping your money.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

So what was it about this post that made you feel "I would have have waited patiently for a very long time if I hadn't seen that."

You were telling me that the snakes were keeping you so busy that you couldn't get to me, yet in the post you say a lot of snakes are sold out now.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

And yes, it has been four months. I am sorry that I must have given the impression that I am only busy TWO or THREE months out of the entire year. As for status reports, seriously, when I am getting ONLY 4 to 5 hours of sleep each night with the workload at that time of year?

You gave no such impression. I wasn't even thinking about this until the day I sent you the last PM. That was right after I read that post.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

And yes, my impression is that you are pissed. You don't HAVE to say it. Otherwise you wouldn't be bringing up the topic like this in an already heated discussion.

I've already said that the only reason I brought it up was because you didn't understand why I felt ignored, and I did it in a way that you would understand what I was talking about but no one else would. It was not my intention to drag it out in the open.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Those aren't words being put into your mouth, that is my assessment of the situation.

You think it so it's true?

Originally Posted by Rich Z

I continue to hear people on this site refer to those "Fauna People" in such a condescending manner, then obviously I need to take down the bridge that connects these two sites. Need I remind you that the chat was installed originally for the FaunaClassifieds site, and I only had this site tied into that chat system because a lot of you ASKED for a chat? If I take down the bridge, who do you think is going to be on the wrong side of that chasm?

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Personally, I would like to just drop most of the discussion forums on FaunaClassifieds and put them here on this site. I think they would get a WHOLE lot more participation here than they are over on FC. All anyone is interested in over there is the BOI, and that's about it. Here, people actually want to TALK about stuff that interests them, and it appears the atmosphere here is more conducive to them doing that.


Hmm, I can't believe I don't have a smiley to reflect what I think about Fauna myself right now. Something that is a cross between a primal scream, jumping off a cliff, going postal, punching someone in the face, and having a heart attack all rolled up into one. Anyone ever seen one like that anywhere?

From the comments above and elsewhere that I just didn’t find in search, I gather: You admit (at least until recently) cornsnake members are kinder, gentler, more talkative, and easier to deal with. Then you admit Fauna members are, well, not quite that. Then you state how Fauna is bigger and earns more money so if either of the sites loses anything it will be cornsnakes. There really is nothing wrong with those statements, and maybe I’m reading it wrong and I don’t really know how to explain how it makes me feel but I’ll try. So you have two grown sons, one makes tons of money and shares the wealth with you but only visits you when they have something to gain from it. Their behavior is so bad, sometimes it makes you feel like this:

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Something that is a cross between a primal scream, jumping off a cliff, going postal, punching someone in the face, and having a heart attack all rolled up into one.

The other son doesn’t make as much money but they are always over to help you mow the lawn, trim the roses, or just sit and talk. And makes you feel like:

Originally Posted by Rich Z

I think they would get a WHOLE lot more participation here than they are over on FC. All anyone is interested in over there is the BOI, and that's about it. Here, people actually want to TALK about stuff that interests them, and it appears the atmosphere here is more conducive to them doing that.

Then you say things like this about the cash cow son:

Originally Posted by Rich Z

I continue to hear people on this site refer to those "Fauna People" in such a condescending manner, then obviously I need to take down the bridge that connects these two sites. Need I remind you that the chat was installed originally for the FaunaClassifieds site, and I only had this site tied into that chat system because a lot of you ASKED for a chat? If I take down the bridge, who do you think is going to be on the wrong side of that chasm?

Good feeling’s gone. Different people will react differently to that. Some will leave in a huff. Then again a lot of us will stay and still participate, but with our heads hung a little low. Sure we’ve put our hearts into the site but when it’s between member’s opinions and money, we’re bound to loose. Nothing really wrong with that either but it takes awhile for us to get over that realization. Perhaps the monetary contributions don’t hold a candle to the google revenue, but if it hadn’t been for the participation of founding members and many, many more that came along, the site would not have grown to the point where it could earn google revenue. However, like I said it’s not about money, it’s about a little recognition. And not recognition like I’m sure you are thinking about. I’m talking about getting the benefit of the doubt. Do you really think that after putting blood, sweat, and tears into a site, helping you, they are really going to get upset and abandon things because they were told to act with dignity? That shows a pretty low opinion of us. That may seem to be the case from a real quick blank stare at the facts, but I think many of us should have earned the benefit of doubt by now. After all you gave it to Joe Jo. Let’s not forget the quote above that shows how you feel about Fauna people, yet they get such a lovie huggie explanation to their actions.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

SOMETHING got that person pissed off enough to go off on a tirade. Sorry, but I don't believe for an instant that there was "no particular reason" for what was said.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Without a doubt, normal people CAN be changed into trolls simply by how you treat them.

So I agree there are people who participated in that chat that have proved they really didn’t earn, or earned and lost, the benefit of doubt. However, I think the majority of them earned the right to the same defense you gave the Fauna member. Again, it’s not an excuse, but should have pointed to you that it was getting bad enough to make good people break. After all, if some Fauna folks (note some, I’m not anti Fauna) made the rational Rich Z fell like this:

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Something that is a cross between a primal scream, jumping off a cliff, going postal, punching someone in the face, and having a heart attack all rolled up into one.

Could you EVER get a clue that’s how we also felt about these people “visiting” us in chat? Could you understand people not wanting to go to a room to chat with people who made you feel like that? Could you understand that us not wanting to go there is not an immature spiteful act?
Back to the quotes you asked for:

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Well be that as it may, the point of this thread was to request people NOT to SNAP in the chat room. It makes this site look bad. It makes me look bad for running this site. And it certainly can't be doing YOU any favors either.

Now it was not this statement that turned people from chat, it was that statement PAIRED with a troll problem that did not stop when people changed their ways. There is nothing wrong with expecting us to turn the other cheek. Expecting us to stay in a room and turn the other check when we are being repeatedly slapped is a little more difficult. We toughed it out and I personally felt I was ready to snap, you requested people didn’t do that, so my only other option was to leave. Sure, I could have reported chat logs, but after this thread it’s obvious you had a chip on your shoulder and didn’t want to give any of us the benefit of doubt. After talking with other people, this was also their reason for leaving. We don’t like getting slapped, yes we are capable of turning the other check once in awhile, but don’t desire to be some where were we have to do it over and over. And what was your take on our actions? We’re all immature, and this was your response.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Some people apparently got their knickers in a knot because I posted this thread in an effort to get the participants to cut out the petty crap I saw taking place in it. So rather than comply, the people this thread was pointed towards decided to just go elsewhere.

Should I have not taken your assumtion on our behavior personal?

Originally Posted by Rich Z

quite honestly I disagree with your assessment of several other people involved. Read this thread from beginning to end and note the people who said THIS thread ruined the chat room for them. Now why is that?

It’s because they were told to turn their cheeks or leave, when their cheeks got sore… they left. I guess that’s bad. Maybe if you had not started this thread and taken the boxing gloves off one of the teams they would still be in there hashing it out. However that doesn’t mean they left because they were angry they couldn’t box, it’s because they were getting the snot beat out of them. Hence, I don’t think people are mad that you told them they couldn’t box, they are mad because they were told they couldn’t box but had to stay in the ring and talk nice with the opponent while they hammered away with their gloves still intact. Apparently, not complying with your request and deciding to go elsewhere is an immature attack towards you and your site. And note this response:

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Oh well......... Guess it is my fault for expecting more from the home team, eh?

We didn’t meet your expectations of what? Staying somewhere we were being insulted and keeping a smile on our face? Should I have not taken this personal either?

Originally Posted by Rich Z

That's why I threw this warning flag on the field. And apparently one team just got in a huff and walked off the field because of it.

Not a huff, chat wasn’t fun with the amount of trolls. We were asked to control ourselves or leave, so we *gasp* left, and apparently did so because we’re so immature. Again, that quote shows me that after dozens of posts you don’t “get” that it has nothing to do with defending the right to be rude to anyone. *see boxing illustration*
I just can’t help but take it personally when I read all your summaries of why YOU think people gave up on chat and that you can’t comprehend that there may be something else reasonable to it. Like or not, there’s not too many ways to read into how you feel about us. When you automatically expect the worst about someone who has been proven over years to be an asset, they get hurt.
I’ll address the “other” thread since I started it. It was started in no way to be a “hate fest”. I’ve had some very awful things done to me over the years, and I still can’t think of anyone I actively hate. It’s not a good way to live. In fact I don’t see that many of the comments made there were any worse than some of the comments you made regarding members in this thread. So is this thread a “hate fest” directed to your members, or where you just a little frustrated with some people? I started it because I had the false impression that it would only be read by a select few that would take it at face value of just “Carol venting”, and that’s it. I meant some of what I said, and some of it I didn’t. I was mad, when I saw the forum begin to get mentioned I feared that I was no longer speaking among only friends that were able to just let me blow off some steam and not read too much into what I was saying. I thought it was getting unnecessarily ugly in your behalf and didn’t want anyone to go over and form any opinion about you or myself over some statements made in frustration. So I asked it be removed. When I made that post I felt that our years of help have at least earned us enough “recognition” for you to be willing to lift a finger and scratch a little below the surface. We’ve earned the right for you to think better of us than “we are just a bunch of immature folk that left because we were asked to be civil”. When that got denied, I vented, hate had nothing to do with it.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

You make it sound like you have engaged in this conversation solely with the expectation that you would be offered the job of moderator.

That’s cute. It’s nice to know that the only reason you think I took the time to explain an “insiders” view was only to fulfill my life long dream of being a chat room mod. Again, that tells me something about what you think of me. *Shrug*. Unfortunately, because of that statement I felt it was necessary for me to decline on principle. And yet you lost another person that might have been willing and able to help with a problem that just isn’t going to go away on it’s own.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Carol, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess you have ……also never been a moderator yourself.

You guessed wrong.

Originally Posted by Mary-Beth

You were telling me that the snakes were keeping you so busy that you couldn't get to me, yet in the post you say a lot of snakes are sold out now.

Absolutely! If you are feeding 400 babies on a 7 day schedule, is that any different to your daily workload than feeding 400 babies on a 5 day schedule? Even though the total number of snakes has been reduced, the workload pretty much remains the same. But you are just doing a better job getting more meals into those snakes.

Originally Posted by Mary-Beth

You gave no such impression. I wasn't even thinking about this until the day I sent you the last PM. That was right after I read that post.

So what impression did I give you? That I was going to leave the country with that $10 of yours? That I am purposely keeping this info from you? What?

Originally Posted by Mary-Beth

I've already said that the only reason I brought it up was because you didn't understand why I felt ignored, and I did it in a way that you would understand what I was talking about but no one else would. It was not my intention to drag it out in the open.

Perhaps you should read your posts again. It is obvious you were agitated at me. You chose to bring this up here rather than simply contacting me via email or PM and saying something like "Rich, I REALLY REALLY need that record for that snake as soon as possible because I REALLY need it."

In all cases, you simply asked me the status of it, and I gave you the status back. You said nothing more about it as a followup, even this last time, but then use it as a bludgeon on me here. Yeah, I know I should have made the effort to get it to you sooner, but I didn't, I'm sorry about it, and I can't do a thing to change the past.

Originally Posted by Mary-Beth

You think it so it's true?

For me it is. As what you think is apparently true to you as well.

Your money has been refunded. I have apologized for my tardiness in providing what you ordered. The genetics chart is in an envelope in the hallway here and will be going out as soon as I can get to the post office. That is the best I can do and ALL I am going to do about it any further.

OK, Carol, you obviously spent a lot of your time coming up and collating those quotes, and you bring up some valid points. So let's discuss this.

So tell me, in my shoes, when presented with that chat log, with everything under consideration (meaning you run both FaunaClassifieds and CornSnakes, as well as everything mentioned in this thread concerning the limitations of trying to control trolls), how would YOU have handled this? Remember you are me, so you have been royally burned by rogue moderators already, and not willing to go through that again. You, being me, also know that it is impossible to get rid of trolls. And the fear is that innocent people may have been being treated as trolls that I have never caught wind of, based on the evidence seen. Someone coming into the Corn Snake room and asking about another type of animal, just doesn't automatically make them a troll, in my opinion.

You also know that yes there are quite a few good people on this site, but good people don't necessarily make good moderators. Your biggest fear by loading up the chat with a flood of moderators is seeing a feeding frenzy develop whereby instead of just bashing the troll (or anyone deemed as such from some arbitrary criteria), now the contest is on to see who will be the first moderator to ban that person.

So the choice is (1) SOMETHING needed to be done, or (2) NOTHING needed to be done. Pick one, and tell me what and/or why, please.