Scale less Corns anyone?

Suncoast Herps said:

Sorry I wasn't clear. My question related to you considering a lack of eyes and a lack of scales to be equivalently debilitating traits. I would be more inclined to class scaleless with amelanism as a trait which would threaten a snakes existance in the wiild.

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I disagree. To me, a snake with no scales is just as defected as a snake with no eyes, three heads, ten feet etc... thus making it EXTREMELY vunerable in the big bad wildnerness. I'm sure 95% of the morphs in captivity would have a tough time roughing it up too. I am in no way implying we should set them all free, just saying.

I don't disagree with breeding morphs (in moderation) so I wonder why I feel so strongly about this one particular gene. Perhaps it's because colour mutations and actual physical features which could make a snake extremely vunerable in captivity as well as the wild are two extremely different things.

I am not absolutly against this project. But I am certainly not interested in buying or working with the scaleless gene, even if the oppertunity arose for £10.

Ok here is my 2 cents.

1. It doesn't matter if they can survive in the wild or not. They would and should not be released into the wild as much for there safety as well as the environments. Corns only live in a specific region. If a bunch get out in a new area and breed it isn't good for the existing ecosystem. The "releasing into the wild" is one of the big concerns people have with us who keep snakes. Think... if a few anacondas got released in Florida how it would effect things. Our ecosystems have enough to deal with.

2. Invictus - I don't remember who made the comment about the science stuff... but you didn't read the post carefully. That person was just expressing a general interest from a scientific point of view. That person said nothing about breeding for $$$$$ under the guise of science. I am a scientist. I also am interested in this from a scientific point of view.

3. Personally I think everyone has the right to their own opinions on if they like it or not. I do however think people should refrain from making to many judgments on it because we do not have enough FACTS to back up many of our concerns. If after research on this snake has been conducted and the effects of this mutation have come to light... THEN make a decision. I think the mutation looks cool... but I would not support something that would cause ill effect to the snake (in captivity).

3. Eyeless and 2 headed snakes are ENTIRELY different. If a snake is eyeless its quality of life is going to be reduced ... and that is a statement which i am sure we could probably all agree on. As far as 2 headed snakes... there have been numerous documented problems with this mutation. Mostly but not solely dealing with spinal injuries. So that being said... this is not a mutation that should be reproduced.

4. Mutations are not necessarily bad things. This is how evolution takes place. Mutations that work and are reproduceable tend to survive... the bad ones die out. Just because something is different doesn't make it an abomination. Again... research needs to be conducted to see if this mutation is harmful to the snake.

5. The reason we have so many issues with dog breeds and health problems is because of back yard breeders and puppy mills. It is uneducated and irresponsible people that cause this. Health declines when you pair 2 off of less than optimum health. This is why people should spay/neuter their pets unless they are a serious breeder. Thankfully most snakes tend to have a lot fewer problems than mammals. I also believe that most of us on here would responsibly take a snake out of breeding plans if they knew that there were health issues with the snake.

That is my 2 cents for now... I had a few more points to make but I am late for work.

ZoologyMajor said:

2. Invictus - I don't remember who made the comment about the science stuff... but you didn't read the post carefully. That person was just expressing a general interest from a scientific point of view. That person said nothing about breeding for $$$$$ under the guise of science. I am a scientist. I also am interested in this from a scientific point of view.

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Addressing you directly, since you addressed me directly...

I didn't say that the scientific study of this should not be encouraged. I simply said that if someone (no one in particular) is breeding this morph and selling it for thousands of dollars while at the same time saying "it's about the science", I'm sorry... but I call shenanigans. It's about being honest about the reasons for propagating something. Either it's for money or science. If it's for science, it would be absolutely unethical to sell the babies until the study is completely concluded. If it's for the sake of making thousands of dollars of the newest morph, fine... but you're obviously not in it for the science. I hope that clarifies my point.

Tula_Montage said:

So whats next guys? Specifically breeding for eyeless corns (if it was a recessive trait?).

You know, because theres a handful of adult specimens out there that are perfectly healthy.

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So what, Elle, you can buy eyeless corns but people can't specifically breed for em? I believe that's called hypocrisy.

Not at all Joe. I bought that snake out of pure interest. I knew she probably wasn't going to make it. I bought her anyways... I wanted to know what an eyeless snake was like to keep, and I found out. And I would never do it again.

She was there, I did not pay for her to be bred, nor did I pay for a snake that was SPECIFICALLY bred to be eyeless...there is a difference. She was a random defected snake, not a "designer snake!"

unlike my better half (who i adore despite her stance on scaleless snakes) i think scaleless snakes are fine, good, lovely, have one?, yes please all the previous scaless mutations have had scutes (that i know of, 4 or 5) does anyone know these ones dont, ie asked brian, till u ask him ur just guessing) remember these are captive snakes, if thier skin is delicate, keepers will handle them gently, if they have trouble shedding keepers will go that extra effort to accomodate them, otherwise they wouldnt own them, these arent like the beardie scaleless much lower temps are involved so there wont be problems there, the scaleless arietans like to sit on 33+- oc and thier perfectly ok, so my view, unlike my lovely elle, is i like them, id take one in every colour, if i ever get a chance to own one, i wont hesitate a second, though i may not tell elle

rgds
Edward

Tula_Montage said:

Not at all Joe. I bought that snake out of pure interest. I knew she probably wasn't going to make it. I bought her anyways... I wanted to know what an eyeless snake was like to keep, and I found out. And I would never do it again.

She was there, I did not pay for her to be bred, nor did I pay for a snake that was SPECIFICALLY bred to be eyeless...there is a difference.

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So if you bought an eyeless corn out of 'pure interest', why can't someone buy a scaleless corn for the same reason?

You stated in that thread that you paid 'significantly more' for her than a regular anery---so is that not telling the breeder/seller that it's something to pursue?

Joejr14 said:

So if you bought an eyeless corn out of 'pure interest', why can't someone buy a scaleless corn for the same reason?

You stated in that thread that you paid 'significantly more' for her than a regular anery---so is that not telling the breeder/seller that it's something to pursue?

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They can, by all means. But the difference is, Blinky was a defected hatchling from a clutch that was not bred to specifically produce eyeless corn snakes. I would not have bought one if that was the case.

I took her because I thought I could do better than the breeder since he had a lot of non feeders etc and didn't have the time to spend on her. It was a one off oppertunity and I took it. My stance on scaleless snakes may have been different before I had the chance to work with such a defected snake.

Perhaps I just felt sorry for the gimpy snake, and yes in doing so I only encourged breeding these sort of animals. However eyeless is not recessive, and the breeder has since sold all his collection of corns seperatley therefore there is nothing to worry about, right?

here is a SCEANRIO..

I have thought of many but here is one..


SCIENCE I hear you cry,.,.. then why in the first post os the forumite baning on about colourm orphs and how AMAZING WOW WOOPEE they wil LOOK..

doesnt sound very sicentific to me mate..

ALSO

Say the scaleless corns breed.... in a decade they are WAY more commonplace and perhaps even start to produce offspring that have scales but carry this defective gene for scaleless..

Dont say IT CANT HAPPEN.. do we know what this might do to the gene pool in a decade or 2... do we even CARE anymore...

All science and nature ever does it prove and disprove itself.. just because we SEEM to understand and KNOW how things work doesnt mean we actually do..

humans are consistent in only one three main areas... death, birth and continual contradiction and change of opinion.. whether it be scientific or not..

I personally feel the animal is beautiful... but then so are many things..

I fele the first post could have been way more sensitive... If you wanted a sensible debate on a scaless corn then perhaps banging on about what amazing LOOKING morphs would VISUALLY LOOK LIKE,.,, asthetically was the wrong way to begin..

A hearfelt scientific interest wouldnt have been so blatantly visually orientated i dont feel.

PS

sorry for the terribly typing im sat here with a 2 yr old whos trying to make a point of typing it for me....

BT41042 said:

I truely wish I would have never posted this project on this board...
BT

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I'm glad you did. Just because some people think it's wrong, or just not their thing- that's ok. Some people think it's really cool, too. I imagine many readers had no idea.

Look at the turtle collector world where an eyeless or two-headed turtle is highly prized. It's not my thing, but I can appreciate that someone else is interested in that.

I'm glad you posted it too... at least it has generated a good discussion, however passionate a topic it may be to some.

Just a little side note:

toyah said:

Elle mentioned the snake probably can't climb vertically, but to be honest most large scale corn snake facilities I've seen don't really allow for vertical climbing in corns, instead using quite shallow tubs - so is that really a disability, or does the lack of ability not really matter in an environment where the ability would not be used?

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Does that mean that we could breed e.g. pigs with extremely short legs and it would be okay because pigs are mostly kept in quite small stables where they can't move anyway? (As it is already done in some breeds of cattle because the meat of the legs doesn't bring much money, by the way)

My point is: Just because some/a great number of keepers/breeders deny their snakes the possibility of climbing we can't say "Hey, it doesn't climb so it doesn't need belly scales"


On scale-less snakes: First of all we have to know if the snake can lead a "normal" (captive normal) life.
Does it suffer when crawling on rough surfaces?
Will it be hurt when trying to climb (I think it won't lose it's climbing instinct alon with it's scales, will it? )
Does it suffer from fungus or bacterial infections (of the skin) more often then a scaled snake?
What about the eyes? (This point really interests me!) Are they extra vulnerable there?
What about fighting/"wrestling" between males or bites by live prey? Is there a greater probability for the animal to be hurt?

If we know about these (and other issues) and can say the snake suffers - then the breeding of this trait should be banned by well-known breeders. (Just my opinion, of course!)

Even if we don't find serious problems, we won't be able to tell if a snake is entirely "happy" in its life (the fact it is breeding is no clue, I think, because otherwise some snakes are completely happy living their whole life in a shoe box).
Some people say, hairless cats are happy, normal cats.
Some ask if cats with reduced or missing whiskers can perceive the same amount of information like "Normals" - my point is: we can't tell because we don't know the entire function of the whiskers.

In fact we have to decide to the best of one's knowledge - as long as everyone agrees in one thing:
I want a healthy snake that kind of enjoys being alive - I don't want a breathing piece of meat that looks "Cool" or "Awesome" and/or that brings prestige or money.

I hope my English is okay, I'm sorry for mistyping and spelling errors

Tula_Montage said:

I don't disagree with breeding morphs (in moderation) so I wonder why I feel so strongly about this one particular gene. Perhaps it's because colour mutations and actual physical features which could make a snake extremely vunerable in captivity as well as the wild are two extremely different things.

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Mutations affecting more than colour or pattern do bring up strong emotions in people - I've no idea why, but if you look at most of the mammal fancies in the UK .... there are hairless mutations, and there are huge movements for them not to be recognised, even if proven not to have a negative effect on the animal. The British and Europeans traditionally seem more reserved than the Americans when it comes to the "more extreme" mutations too. No idea why, but just something I've noticed

Suncoast Herps said:

1. Dr Bechtel was working with scaleless texas rats decades ago. as to their potential longevity, there are specimens in excess of 15 years of age right here in Florida. I have seen and handled these animals several times. The animals have always been outwardly healthy. Decreased lifespan does not seem to be an issue.

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That's interesting to know. How much scalation did the Texas Rats have? (I assume there was some in the way of residual scales). Does anyone know if these corns have any scales?

Suncoast Herps said:

2. Like any mutation that changes the norm for an animal, there are undoubtedly side issues that can be a concern

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Agreed - most people don't realise that colour and pattern mutations in most animals tend to have other effects aside from the basic visual changes. We see it with spider royal pythons and the "calico" corn snakes mentioned in Kathy Love's book because they're very obvious ... but if you look at any highly studied lab mammal, you'll find that the majority of colour/pattern genes also have physical effects to some level. I imagine the same is true in corns but we just haven't found out yet!

Suncoast Herps said:

However, there have been more than one subadult with this mutation found in the wild. a few yellow rats have been collected from the south Okeechobee region. Those animals did manage to survive and grow for extended periods. It would lead one to believe that the animals do adapt to some extent. From a camouflage point, it is a far less serious negative than amelanism

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I find that absolutely fascinating. Do you know the condition of the subadults captured? Obviously the effects of that particular mutation were not so great the animals could not survive ... what happened to them in captivity?

Have amelanistic corn snakes been found in the wild, anyone?

BTW, does anyone know what level of vision and smell an amelanistic snake has? In most animals albinism results in an animal with a reduced sense of not just vision but also smell. An albino rat (a species who would not suffer much daylight) will be basically blind within weeks of birth. How much vision does an albino snake retain? If snake vision follows the logic of what you'd expect from other species, then I would probably place eyelessness and albinism as the same level of disability, but I can't decide whether they'd be above or below scalelessness :shrugs:

Talinea said:

Does that mean that we could breed e.g. pigs with extremely short legs and it would be okay because pigs are mostly kept in quite small stables where they can't move anyway? (As it is already done in some breeds of cattle because the meat of the legs doesn't bring much money, by the way)

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God no ... if you saw my corn enclosures you'd know that ... all my adult corns are in enclosures that provide plenty of opportunity to climb. I was just throwing the point out there for discussion

Talinea said:

On scale-less snakes: First of all we have to know if the snake can lead a "normal" (captive normal) life.

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I agree, and I'd like to know these things before I come to a conclusion on whether i like them or not. All I can tell you right now is that they look pretty ... but then I think that of a lot of animals I'd never own!

Menhir said:

Do this next step and breeding...tailless animals

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Just a note, tailless would most likely not work, as a male will already not breed a female that has a stub tail, it is to hard to find the cloaca, so thus tailless would be near impossible.

This thread has really thrown me.....I don't know what to think let alone say after reading all the post....I can see it from both sides of the fence, and I still haven't worked out which side I am sat.
I am a bit of a hypocrite in some ways. I like the colours of the snake morphs, but I wonder if it's a good thing to manipulate the genetics. Thats why this has thrown me so much....This is manipulation in the true sense of the word, but the colours are facinating.
I need to sleep on this one and think long and hard, maybe I'll never settle this one in my mind....

That's interesting to know. How much scalation did the Texas Rats have? (I assume there was some in the way of residual scales). Does anyone know if these corns have any scales?

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They had absolutely no vestige of a scale. The hide felt a lot like the skin of a day old boa. Sort of like fine suede.

I find that absolutely fascinating. Do you know the condition of the subadults captured? Obviously the effects of that particular mutation were not so great the animals could not survive ... what happened to them in captivity?

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To the best of my knowledge, they are all thriving. Given the contraversy here, I will refrain on naming the breeder though

Have amelanistic corn snakes been found in the wild, anyone?

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Approximately a dozen have been found over the last 4 decades

I cannot nor am I trying to convince people what's right.

All I can say is this, as a vet Technician I am painfully aware of all the surprises we unleashed when we opened Pandora's box unto canines. Dogs that barely resemble their original line now are sentenced to life that will without a doubt will be mingled with pain from their jaws, legs, hips et cetera. I also know that they are the ones paying the price for -our- wants.

Snakes are even less expressive, whilst a dog can show signs of distress, a snake many times won't- due to their hard coded behaviour not to show signs of weakness else they will fall prey.

I am hoping to make people think, really think, before they act. We are currently messing around in a field which is still widely unexplored and we do not yet know the full implications of our actions- and the snakes are the ones who may suffer from it.

All I ask is that you consider the implications of your actions, I do not nor do I wish to prevent progress- progress is also paved with mistakes, without a doubt. But in this case, it is us who experiment and -they- are the ones who will pay the tally. I think that morality should have a huge part in a breeder's choice.

Also try and realize that we are all different, sure, now it sounds absurd to actively breed eyeless snakes... but there are dwarf snakes nowdays, and a few years back I am sure that a completely white snake also sounded insane.

But let us face facts, we are becoming numb, the extreme slowly becomes the norm and another yet more extreme morph will become the subject of the next debate.

All I ask is, before you breed an animal, try and see how much you are putting on the line, and how big is the risk that the hatchlings won't have to live out a life of agony, which sadly can be (not deliberately or knowingly) prolonged due to the sterility of captivity.

Invictus said:

You're right - the bigger picture is the $$$$$$ that will be made propagating a deleterious gene. If it's strictly for science, then I hope we see this horrid morph being sold for $10, which is what it's worth. Otherwise, please don't try to tell me that the people propagating this gene are in the least bit interested in the science of it.

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Nor are those who breed hypo plasmas.

I love the look of them, if they don't come with health problems, then I can't wait for a scaleless blood red.:grabbit: