Cohabbing Misfortunes.

Originally Posted by airenlow

I wasn't turning anything around...

I did not say you do, or at least I did not mean to. I turned things around to show how easy that can be done. Everybody has the right to form their opinion and use reasoning along with assumptions that are derived from their values or the other way around, as long as they keep in mind that only objective testing can deliver us facts. As long as there have not been objective studies on co-habbing in corns, I think some people need to cool down a bit on the subject and not condone others for trusting their and other people's experiences with it instead of theories and assumptions, even if they are backed by firm reasoning.

Originally Posted by SnakeAround

I did not say you do, or at least I did not mean to. I turned things around to show how easy that can be done. Everybody has the right to form their opinion and use reasoning along with assumptions that are derived from their values or the other way around, as long as they keep in mind that only objective testing can deliver us facts. As long as there have not been objective studies on co-habbing in corns, I think some people need to cool down a bit on the subject and not condone others for trusting their and other people's experiences with it instead of theories and assumptions, even if they are backed by firm reasoning.

The FACT is that no objective testing is warranted, because snakes are solitary animals!! I know this is not what you want to hear, but cramming solitary animals together is abusive, even in the name of "science".

Just because the facts are not to your liking does not change a thing.
There is absolutely no way to justify your keeping methods.

Actually, I took the part off about the male female deal. I reread the post you put and had for some reason originally thought I'd read male in with female. I then saw that it was female/female...still not good but better than a pair of opposites. I had edited it out but you got a hold of it too fast! LOL! If I had unlimited funds I'd build a room size viv for each snake. I've entertained thoughts of how to build a building that has cages with access to individual outdoor sections. My friend keeps his turtles like that. Just don't have the means to do it so I have to settle with larger cages that are as natural as I can make them in the space I have. I'd certainly have more if I had the room for them. I can only fit so many 4 ft long by 2 ft high by 2 ft deep cages in the room. The corns have nearly 4 ft long cages by 2 ft deep and 18" high. They don't need the height of the arboreal since they spend more time on the ground. In my dreams I'd have a huge building with the roof with plexiglass openings to let in lots of natural light. Kind of like the greenhouses you see except much bigger...maybe like you see at large nursery's. The cages would be open screen types because I could control the humidity in the building and airflow. I'd have them all natural with trees and bushes and plants of all types. I'd also love running water in them. I totally love that in the snail eater's cage. It's basically a dart frog setup, but it works wonderfully for the smaller species. I'd like something like it for my eyelash viper as well. Unfortunately....I'm not rich as Midas at this time and don't expect to be anytime soon, so I have to do the best I can..which is provide as large a cage as can be managed and give them as natural a caging as possible. No one is saying that you need a 10 to keep them. I DO say that you need to meet minimum requirements. A living space large enough to accomodate the animal, food that meets it's nutritional needs, temperatures that meet it's needs, medical care should it be necessary, hiding areas to give it a feeling of safety and a cage alone in respect for it's natural habits. This is true of ANY animal you own. If you have a dog...it should be kept the way a dog's natural needs are met...the need of the animal...not the need of Susie or Joe or Meg ...the dog. If you have a cat, you need to meet the needs of that cat....not the dog....a horse...the horse's needs. Too many of us keep their animals in ways that are convenient for US, not what the animal really needs to thrive as THAT species. Dogs need a pack, horses need a herd, wide spaces and the ability to graze constantly. Cats need...well...cats just want what they want! Snakes need to be alone. It's in their DNA...that's the basics of the animal. You can keep them in a tank with paper towel and hides...that works...yes it does. People keep them that way and they do fine....pretty much. You meet the minimum needs of the species-and snakes don't require that much. However, when you keep multiple snakes together, you are no longer meeting the minimum needs of the animal....you are going against the basic instincts of it. I personally think that keeping in more naturalistic and larger cages helps keep the snakes active and stimulated. Since I don't feed weekly, my snakes are almost always out and active hunting for food and searching through the cages. Babies are kept in smaller tubs to help them feel more secure. They are moved to larger setups when they are ready. I've had some snakes that take longer to move into larger cages because they stress too much when they get into the bigger spots. I had a green tree python that did not handle moving to a larger space well at all. I moved her back into a tub to provide her with less stress until she grew a little more. She is still one of my more nervous snakes that does not like to be handled and reacts to things more strongly than my other green trees. I respect that by avoiding handling her at all, usually leaving her strictly alone except to spot clean and feed/water changes. I don't make her have to tolerate me more than I have to. Bigger would not necessarily be better for her. You judge each snake....I still would NOT ever co-habitate a snake with even my calmest snake because it just...is...against....their....nature....period!

Originally Posted by susang

I don't think anyone was going all Mother Theresa on you. Barbara, I looked at your set-up in another post really don't see where that is better, more roomy any nicer then a rack system with tubs. The only difference I see in the same space you have lets say 10 vivs, 20 snakes, and us uppity no-it-all Americans have 10 vivs, 10 snakes. I'm no math expert or engineer but I wonder what the difference is sq in per viv in your set-up and a tub commonly used here? My guess is close to the same. So tell me where your way is better and more natural.

I have said already multiple times that I compare my way to drawers, yet I have come to realise that actually you guys are not keeping them in drawers but in same sized tubs in racks. So you are probably better keepers than I am... or many other keepers over here, there it is again, my humble acknowledgement of that for everybody else to see, in case people missed it. Yet, should we all be allowed to only keep them at AAA rate level or else not keep them? And what is that level AAA? Is it ok to talk down AA level keepers if AA is still considered ok in the range?

By the way, I never said my way is more natural

I do wonder how large your houses all are? Lookign at American real life series I see quite poor peope live in quite large stand alone houses with a garden all around it all the time. Over here that costs a fortune, poorer people are in rack like buildings with tubs.. erm.. one or two room appartments My home measures about 80 - 85 square meters with one master bed room (was a small and an average room), average living room, large kitchen and a hobby/computer room sized about 4 x 4 meter I think. Many couples consider that large. Maybe over here houses have always been smaller on average and that is why more people started co-habbing over here? Not as an excuse but something must have triggered this.

Originally Posted by MegF.

Actually, I took the part off about the male female deal. I reread the post you put and had for some reason originally thought I'd read male in with female. I then saw that it was female/female...still not good but better than a pair of opposites. I had edited it out but you got a hold of it too fast! LOL! If I had unlimited funds I'd build a room size viv for each snake. I've entertained thoughts of how to build a building that has cages with access to individual outdoor sections. My friend keeps his turtles like that. Just don't have the means to do it so I have to settle with larger cages that are as natural as I can make them in the space I have. I'd certainly have more if I had the room for them. I can only fit so many 4 ft long by 2 ft high by 2 ft deep cages in the room. The corns have nearly 4 ft long cages by 2 ft deep and 18" high. They don't need the height of the arboreal since they spend more time on the ground. In my dreams I'd have a huge building with the roof with plexiglass openings to let in lots of natural light. Kind of like the greenhouses you see except much bigger...maybe like you see at large nursery's. The cages would be open screen types because I could control the humidity in the building and airflow. I'd have them all natural with trees and bushes and plants of all types. I'd also love running water in them. I totally love that in the snail eater's cage. It's basically a dart frog setup, but it works wonderfully for the smaller species. I'd like something like it for my eyelash viper as well. Unfortunately....I'm not rich as Midas at this time and don't expect to be anytime soon, so I have to do the best I can..which is provide as large a cage as can be managed and give them as natural a caging as possible. No one is saying that you need a 10 to keep them. I DO say that you need to meet minimum requirements. A living space large enough to accomodate the animal, food that meets it's nutritional needs, temperatures that meet it's needs, medical care should it be necessary, hiding areas to give it a feeling of safety and a cage alone in respect for it's natural habits. This is true of ANY animal you own. If you have a dog...it should be kept the way a dog's natural needs are met...the need of the animal...not the need of Susie or Joe or Meg ...the dog. If you have a cat, you need to meet the needs of that cat....not the dog....a horse...the horse's needs. Too many of us keep their animals in ways that are convenient for US, not what the animal really needs to thrive as THAT species. Dogs need a pack, horses need a herd, wide spaces and the ability to graze constantly. Cats need...well...cats just want what they want! Snakes need to be alone. It's in their DNA...that's the basics of the animal. You can keep them in a tank with paper towel and hides...that works...yes it does. People keep them that way and they do fine....pretty much. You meet the minimum needs of the species-and snakes don't require that much. However, when you keep multiple snakes together, you are no longer meeting the minimum needs of the animal....you are going against the basic instincts of it. I personally think that keeping in more naturalistic and larger cages helps keep the snakes active and stimulated. Since I don't feed weekly, my snakes are almost always out and active hunting for food and searching through the cages. Babies are kept in smaller tubs to help them feel more secure. They are moved to larger setups when they are ready. I've had some snakes that take longer to move into larger cages because they stress too much when they get into the bigger spots. I had a green tree python that did not handle moving to a larger space well at all. I moved her back into a tub to provide her with less stress until she grew a little more. She is still one of my more nervous snakes that does not like to be handled and reacts to things more strongly than my other green trees. I respect that by avoiding handling her at all, usually leaving her strictly alone except to spot clean and feed/water changes. I don't make her have to tolerate me more than I have to. Bigger would not necessarily be better for her. You judge each snake....I still would NOT ever co-habitate a snake with even my calmest snake because it just...is...against....their....nature....period!

I do understand what you are saying and you are actually getting closer to convincing me than anyone else has ever done somehow. You might have sown a seed that grows into me not co-habbing by comparing it to horses, they are surely a species not being honored enough by the way they are threated by too many people. Darn now I have to go through the struggle of coping with that seed...

But now.. bed time! Have to get up early to do some voluntary first aid assistance work until diner time.....

Once a snake is removed from the wild, there is nothing even remotely "natural" about any aspect of its environment.

Originally Posted by Nanci

Once a snake is removed from the wild, there is nothing even remotely "natural" about any aspect of its environment.

Yup. We need to keep them to the best of our ability at that point, which means honoring their solitary lifestyle.

Bed time for me too. I'm feeding homeless kittens tomorrow.

Gotta work tomorrow or it would be Petsmart and dog adoptions for me. Two more weeks to find a home for George before I go to Washington DC for a national dog walk. He'll be home all alone if he's not found a home by then! My three are going with me to do the walk.

Originally Posted by susang

I'm no math expert or engineer but I wonder what the difference is sq in per viv in your set-up and a tub commonly used here? My guess is close to the same. So tell me where your way is better and more natural.

I did the math once to see about that!

I keep most of my corns in 41 quart sterilite tubs. Those measure 36 x 16 inches, for a total of 576 Square inches.
The corns in my display cages have 24 x 24 inch caging... 576 square inches.
A 55 gallon fish tank is 12 x 48 inches, equaling a total of 576 square inches...

The recommended size for a single corn is 360 square inches (a twenty gallon long tank).

Since they are not climbers, and floor space is what matters, all my corns are in the same sized viv.

Originally Posted by AliCat37

I did the math once to see about that!

I keep most of my corns in 41 quart sterilite tubs. Those measure 36 x 16 inches, for a total of 576 Square inches.
The corns in my display cages have 24 x 24 inch caging... 576 square inches.
A 55 gallon fish tank is 12 x 48 inches, equaling a total of 576 square inches...

The recommended size for a single corn is 360 square inches (a twenty gallon long tank).

Since they are not climbers, and floor space is what matters, all my corns are in the same sized viv.

I wonder how they measure size wise to Barbras I bet very close,