Chat room - listen up, please

Originally Posted by Rich Z

You make it sound like you have engaged in this conversation solely with the expectation that you would be offered the job of moderator.

That was never my goal. Just so you and others don't see it that way I refuse the job. I'm sorry I kept this going.

Originally Posted by Joejr14

Just playing Devil's Advocate here...

Ah, the kinder, gentler version of your standard "I don't mean to be an 'a-hole', but....."

You'd recommend Jazz to be a chat room moderator? There are quite a few chat logs that are floating around that show a display far worse than 'gtfo'.

OOOOooohh!!!! "The Basement Chat Logs" !!! I feel like Bob Dylan.

Meanwhile, I'd be able to produce chat logs where your introductory comment is filled with so much whine - be it from your day at work, to a problem with one of your snakes, to your perception of the state of this site - that I'd be able to offer you some fine Wisconsin cheese to accompany it.

And not that my life is so pathetic that I even feel the need to maintain logs. I could simply hang in the room and wait for your appearance tomorrow night, or in a week, or in a year - dollars to donuts, your first post will be a complaint of some sort. To that end, I'll give you props for consistency. You've been a consistent whiny, childish cipher, so much to the point that one of my new neighbors (who has frequented this forum longer than either of us) has made the correlation - not necessarily the causation, but I'll let others be the judge - between the beginning of the lack of civility here on the forums with the beginning of your frequenting the forums.

I don't mean to be an a-hole about this, I just wanted to bring it to your attention.

And you needn't run to Rich with this post, requesting that he do something about the troll who was mean to you. Rich has been keeping up with this thread.

Of course, since he said 'sorry' he's in the clear??

Whether or not someone has expressed regret over their actions has no bearing on their potential ability as a mod. (Not that I'd want the gig anyway.)

If one person would just create a "Cornsnakes Clique" room, this would be avoided. As long as that person is in the room, they're the mod. We have to resort to this many many times over the years we've been chatting. That gives you complete control over the room and lets you boots trolls and problems ASAP.

Go for it. With you as mod, I'm sure we'd all be clamoring to be there, if not to simply say "I remember him when...", as we prop the grandchilluns up on our knee to tell them a story.

Gotta go. I think I'm bleeding out - at least my eyes feel that way.

regards,
jazz

Originally Posted by Joejr14

Yeah, this entire thread is about how a handful of people lost their cool ONE time. One flipping time we got fiesty and bitched at a troll.

The first time this has happened, after months and months and months of repeated trolling in that chat room.

And now, because of one single chatroom snipet, we're labeled as immature.

Makes a lot of sense, right?

Sorry, I need to jump ahead a bit to grab this quote from Joe...

Originally Posted by Joejr14

Just playing Devil's Advocate here...

You'd recommend Jazz to be a chat room moderator? There are quite a few chat logs that are floating around that show a display far worse than 'gtfo'. Of course, since he said 'sorry' he's in the clear??

Joe, I'm sorry, but I just don't understand these two quotes taken together at all. In the first one you are plainly stating that the incident shown in the chat log snippet is a FIRST and ONLY TIME that anything like that has happened. Actually when I read that, I thought, hmm, guess I had better see if I still have any of those other chat logs sent to me in the past. But I continued reading on, and darn if that later post of yours just has me beat. Let me requote that sentence that baffles me:

There are quite a few chat logs that are floating around that show a display far worse than 'gtfo'.

Well what happened to that original claim about uniqueness of this sort of behavior? Are you now saying that it is NOT unique at all? Sorry if I have misunderstood what you are saying in those quotes...

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Originally Posted by Drizzt80

Carol, I don't believe you or I are very far apart in our beliefs on this issue. I don't agree with any of those points I made either . . . those are the stated issues that others have posted either here or elsewhere. You personally got me to see past the chat room issue and to move on to this other garbage which is what is depressing me and keeping me involved in this discussion. Believe it or not, but I am just as saddened and broken up over this apparent division. Thing is, except for this thread, the UPS/FedEx thread, the Joe P. thread and maybe one or two others (edit: any hybird thread discussion!), where is all this animosity that people are offended by? The rest of this forum is still operating with questions being asked, friendships being made, chat working (heck, Joejr and I actually spoke the other night!!) etc. etc. etc. It's become the issue of $$$, advertising, and the other things I listed by the self imposed boycotters. I'm not losing sleep that they are posting/conversing elsewhere, that's their choice. I'm losing sleep over the fact that they are educated good people who I held/hold in high regard who I thought would be able to discuss and work through this problem instead of run away from it. That's my issue and I stated it before. Apparently that's being 'high and mighty', 'holier than thou' and the latest (and new favorite) 'boot licking'.

I think the thing I find most amusing about this is that some of the people who I know are saying those things are exactly the ones who complain about how some of the people on FaunaClassifieds act. And quite honestly, THAT sort of talk is exactly what comes from those sorts of people as soon as they get their toes tromped on for one reason or another over there. The accusations that anyone who is not FOR them must be against them. An ass kisser for not going with THEIR way of thinking and following THEIR banner.

Quite honestly, it is nothing to lose sleep over. Matter of fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if one or more of the people doing the boycott thing aren't in the process right at this moment setting up their own forum. And they certainly need a reason to give to new recruits for why their site will be better than this one...

Originally Posted by Drizzt80

Can you blame Rich for being gun shy? The reaction to his request (EVERYONE behave) about chat room behavior was a face full of BS. Dale/Jazzgeek is the ONLY person in those transcripts that made a 100% apology about, and acknowledgement of, his bad behavior. Joejr I believe somewhere in here has also thrown out a 'sorry'. The rest of the 'regulars' were defending the behavior as being acceptable for that particular situation, because . . . blah, blah, blah. But's it's not about the chat logs. The chat room has proven to be the catalyst for the other issues I listed above. And that truly confuses me.

I'm sure I have addressed this before, but hell yes I am gun shy! Don't any of you visit FaunaClassifieds? Did you happen to see what happened with several of the moderators I put into the Discussion Forums? Sheesh! I had a couple of them get a bug up their butt and start DELETING messages helter skelter. Had some people actively trying to undermine some forums because they didn't LIKE the moderator in them. Just in chat alone I had a moderator who was kicking off people who were competitors to his own business whenever they disagreed with him. And no, I didn't PURPOSELY pick people who I thought would do something like that.

And no, the excuse that the behavior was acceptable because the other guy deserved it just doesn't wash with me. Stooping to THEIR level makes you BE their level. My request here (actually probably seems more like a demand, I guess) was for people HERE to not stoop to their level and thereby make ALL of us look the worse for it.

Originally Posted by Drizzt80

I would like to think Rich is more of a standup guy than that.

Disposable? Sorry, I just don't see how that conclusion was reached. Was it because I just don't accept some people's arguments blindly? Or because I simply disagree with what they are saying to me?

Originally Posted by Drizzt80

That wasn't the point of my '3 communities' comment. I pointed it out above, but to repeat, it now creates 3 communities where decisions about morph types and genetics will be made. Much the same way that CS.com members haven't cared whether KS.com members followed along with them here or not. Now, if this tear in the time space continuum continues, there's the potential for that to happen with 3 separate communities.

Honestly, I don't think it is going to matter much. If any such information is considered to be valuable enough for someone to consider them a commercial breakthrough, they will post that information where the people are to read it. And quite honestly, I think the commercial aspects will be the driving force behind most everyone with this boycott thing in mind. In reality, all they are doing is cutting off their own nose to spite their face. I really can't imagine a wholesale bailing out of people here because of my demand to clean up the chat room. Matter of fact, I think many people would find such a thought to be downright hilarious.

Originally Posted by Drizzt80

Believe it or not I'm trying to NOT use blanket judgements. My judgements/words are based on some of the actions and words of those that have chosen not to be "fair and work(ing) for the better of the site." You carol HAVE stuck around and kept engaged in this conversation. YOU carol are attempting to fix the problem. I will most likely take a break from this thread now as well because I think you and I actually agree on most of what's taking place here . . . just from different angles or with different methods of 'attack'.

Actually I see more of the case of SPECIFIC POINTED details being brought up and NOT blanket statements at all. The blanket statements I am seeing are along the lines of "Rich considers us all as disposable", "Rich is siding with the trolls and making US out to be bad guys", and "Rich is only interested in MONEY, and nothing at all about us or this site." Basically just stuff that is being pulled out of thin air.

Originally Posted by Drizzt80

At the risk of being further perceived as 'holier than thou' maybe both sides can drop their ego's and hash this out. Is fixing this maybe a discussion better held by contributing members? Or otherwise? Who takes the first step, who holds out the hand for the first handshake?

Well that depends. If someone feels I am being hardheaded, obstinate, and unreasonable by expecting the members of this site to act better in the chat than what I observed in that chat log, then there is nothing to discuss. I have done my best when trolls were disclosed to me, no matter which side of the fence they may have come from. Sorry, I just don't maintain an audit log of such things, and doubt I ever will. The thing that concerns me the most is when I see one or more members here actually GOADING someone else into finally flying off the handle and then coming to me claiming I need to ban that person for being a troll. Yeah, some are going to dispute that this actually happened, but when I look at a chat log, I have to see what is in black and white. If there is more to it, then send more to me. That will be all that I have to go on.

Originally Posted by Drizzt80

Regardless, I nominate carol to be a moderator in chat. And while he has admitted to taking pleasure in feeding the trolls, I think Dean would be an excellent moderator if held it as a 'job' title. I would nominate him as well (he doesn't hold grudges).

D80

That is not something that anyone should take lightly, as I indicated in my previous post. Someone here actually did volunteer for the job, but as I told this person, it will be a thankless job. Even if you are the BEST there is at it, you will piss people off if you do your job effectively. If you can't afford to do the job for fear of pissing off your customers, then you can't do the job.

=========================

Originally Posted by hana

After a few hours to think...

Rich, I didn't mean for you to take my last post as a personal attack. It wasn't meant like that. Could I have gotten my point across a little more creatively? Yeah, probably so. I'm sorry if you're going to take it personally instead of what it was. And all it was, was a nod to the type of 'banter' you seem to think is no big deal.
I still stand by the fact that when you're making a choice that involves others you are accountable to them.

I am also sorry for the fact that this could have been avoided by a simple,"I'm sorry you feel this way" type of email at the time the reported chat happened. Had that happened, there would have been no harm, no foul.

I am also sorry that this has stressed me to the point that I felt the urge to 'lash out'. The attitude that has been taken by yourself and a few others has left myself and a few others wondering what we did so horrible in the first place. I am very sorry for that.


Once again, I was not attacking you, it was an analogy. I'm sorry if you felt that way. I hold no spite towards you as a person. I never did actually, and I don't begrudge you any money you might make off this site. But, I won't be pushed around.

I'm sorry.



hana

Gee, I can't imagine why someone would take you calling them a "rectum faced pygme" as a personal attack......

Actually I'm not really sure why you went for my throat in the first place. Because I never responded to that chat event you sent me? Sorry, but I get a LOT of emails and pms every day from people, and sometimes I just haven't the time to reply to all of them. Matter of fact, I have 1,135 unanswered emails in my inbox right now. Granted some of them are marked that way just to call my attention to them, but if even HALF of them were people waiting for answers...... See what I mean?

But I do recognize that emotions have been running very high in this thread, and I really do not hold grudges. But still, you DID post something rather derogatory to me, and I just can't let that slide. So best I can do is to reduce you ban to only 2 days rather than the original 7. Sorry, but I just can't allow people to abuse me with no repercussions.

As an aside, you may want to consider getting a Contributor membership here. If you had one, you likely would have been able to edit out that slur before I ever would have seen it.

================================

Originally Posted by MohrSnakes

Maybe....Rich could pay me in corns and I would sit in the chat room ALL day long and monitor it. It would be my unofficial job. I would tell people to play nice and everyone would hug.

Yeah, and this time next year you would probably be one of the most despised people on this site if you do your job properly. And if you DIDN'T do your job properly, the other half of the people would be at your throat as well. So half of the people would be coming to me to fire you because you were too overbearing or the other half would want me to fire you because you weren't doing your job.

I honestly think that some of you don't have a clue about that job. Look at the flak I am catching just in this thread. How many customers do you think I have now lost because of it? Was it worth it just to try to clean up that chat room? Probably not. But what was my alternative? Just let it keep on like it was?

OK, well, I'm really not interested in having my own motivations and actions presented to the public by people who will find the worst possible spin they can invent...

1- The reason I do not use the chat room here anymore?

This scenario where people are leaving the chat room because they did horrible things, and want to continue to do horrible things, but were told that they are not allowed to do horrible things, has got to be the most ridiculous theory I've heard in a long time. I didn't even say ANYTHING to Joe_Jo so I'm not sure what anyone thinks I would even be feeling "chastised" about anyway.

If you click on my name and select "Find more posts by Serpwidgets" it will plainly show that the last time I was actively posting on the board was September 21st. It had NOTHING to do with this thread which was started on the 11th and burned out like a week before that day.

So why don't I chat here? I HATE TROLLS. It's that simple.

We were getting constantly trolled by people from fauna, and then this ridiculous thread popped up. The chatters were complaining that the chatroom was being overrun with trolls, and everyone was so fixated on "gtfo" that they were completely ignoring that. I know many people think that the solution to any problem is to whine long and loud enough that someone else will finally be so annoyed by you that they will fix it for you just to get you off their back. But I believe the way to solve a problem is to shut up, get off your butt, and DO SOMETHING. That's what I did.

Since it was claimed that the chat software costs (some ridiculous amount that nobody in their right mind would pay) I went about looking for a chat that I could buy, out of my own pocket, and donate it to the site just so we'd have a place to chat without the constant barrage of fauna trolls. I found something I could afford, and after I had paid for it, instead of just handing it over to someone who will then not appoint any mods and just invite a bunch of trolls and let extremely annoying people stay in the name of collecting more ad revenue, I put it on my own site. I paid for it, after all, and I don't have to waste my time trying to convince anyone it's a good idea and begging them to implement it. Problem solved.

Of course, at that point, it becomes a "lose/lose" situation because if I post anything about it here, I will be accused of trying to pull chat users, and if I say nothing, then I get accused of being an elitist with my "secret corn chat" even though it has been linked from the home page on CCCorns the entire time it has existed.

Sorry to burst any bubbles, but unless MSN Messenger and all emails on the internet qualify as "Rich's chat room," I did not tell anyone about my chat through "Rich's chat room." I actually told only a couple of people, and then they told people they knew. There were a few who I would have been mighty glad to see show up, but I did not go about any real effort to "recruit" anyone and missed quite a few in the process. The scenario with me lurking in the CS chatroom trying to badmouth Rich and redirect members was good for a laugh though.

Also, as far as any accusations of it being a "secret" that nobody would find out about, uhh sure if you insist. Anyone who happened upon our page would be able to see it's there. This will be quite a few more people when we put up our 2007 pairings, a new gallery of our collection, and the eggcam is back up and running since we are expecting our first clutch within a week or so.

2- The Advanced corn forum is an idea I've had for a long time but have been too busy with other projects to start on. I happened to mention it during Tinley as something I'd like to eventually do in 2007 or 2008, and later on Zach emailed me and offered to host it. I accepted. Anyone who wants to is welcome to poo-poo the idea and act as if I don't know anything about forums or what it takes to run one, but the first time I ran a forum was in 1994-1995 when I ran a "political arguments" forum that stayed civilized.

The Advanced forum is not an attempt to compete with cornsnakes.com. I find it odd that anyone can read the "welcome and rules" thread and come to such a conclusion. I have no interest in running yet another forum where beginners ask the same questions over and over, and "senior members" who have become bored with the same old questions just patrol the boards looking for fights to pick because there's nothing else to do. Some people enjoy those questions and it never gets old to them, but it's boring to me. So, once again instead of trying to solve a problem with whining, I decided to fix it by creating a place where the "boring" stuff does not exist and by making it so that it is not easy for trolls/spammers/flamers and anyone else interested in disrupting the place to even have access.

Reason number two for the advanced forum is that I happen to know quite a few people who are extremely knowledgeable about corns, and read internet forums, but refuse to involve themselves in posting on them because there's always some bored person who will carefully pick through the wording of their every post, looking for something they can use as the basis for an attack. It's my hope that some of these people will be more likely to get involved in some great online discussions if they see there's a place where they can do so without someone trying to ruin their lives or their businesses.

Once again, if I advertise the existence of the Advanced forum I will be attacked for that, and meanwhile, not announcing it opens me up to being called an elitist with a secret corn forum. Pick whichever one you want.

3- Why don't I post actively anymore?

Because, in addition to having google ads shoved in my face as if the $460 a year I was spending here wasn't enough (and the $25 of contributors wasn't enough to warrant consideration for them) this place has become little more than a shark tank. It's getting to the point where it's as bad as kingsuck and fauna.

I'm really not interested in discussions where people spend 500 pages arguing over ridiculous things in an attempt to further their personal vendettas against each other. I'm really not interested in opening a thread to find yet another pointless argument from someone who patrols the forums looking for anything they can try to spin in order to make someone look bad, and even call their targets bullies and elitists, and beg for further attention by labeling them as "boycotters" if they refuse to engage in a fight, especially when they themselves don't contribute any actual content to the site and really have no reason to be here other than to pick fights and create strife.

Simply put, I'd rather say it in a place where it is not buried under a heap of irrelevant and pointless posts.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Well gee, someone directed me to a site that had a little hate fest going on about me and this site, and what did I find also on the site.

A hate fest Rich, really? You interpreted that as a hate fest but a comment about hitting someone with a large board is just a joke?

If I recall correctly only one person said anything negative about you in that thread.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Ignored? In what way? Because someone may claim something that I disagree with and therefore I am not accepting their point of view?

Uncomfortable? Well yeah, certainly some might feel that way in the chat, but that is probably balanced out by the others who seem to enjoy what I saw going on in there. So when I requested that it stop, just who did that make feel uncomfortable?

I can't speak for others, but they've already given reasons that have nothing to do with google ads or a chat room.

As for me, you should KNOW why I'm feeling ignored and uncomfortable - and it has nothing to do with anything in this thread.

After 6+ years of online postings and chattings on a variety of reptile related sites and meeting the people I've chatted with in person, I have a few observations I'd like to throw out here

on MODERATORS

Unless you hire C-3PO (or another advanced NONHUMAN) you'll NEVER have a moderator that has absolutely no bias, prejudice excetera and that mod will always have someone crying "FOUL" at some point during their moderation of a chat/forum. Thankless job? Yes (and I hear the pay sucks too). Would I want it (not that I'd ever be expected to be asked to mod anywhere) NO....thats a BIG NO too

On FORUMS

Every forum I've ever posted on goes thru cycles of good postings and bad postings. It will seem like months go by with new members joining in with well thought out posts, a willingness to take advice and (criticisms) with a grain of salt and move on, and becoming a valued member, "value" equalling "not an a&*hole in general" Then comes the "Hepl, my cron sanke is DYING!" posters, who generally probably shouldn't own a goldfish let alone a hamster let alone a snake. But thru gritted teeth they get help, and hopefully join the "valued member" group (they don't usually, but it CAN happen lol)

On TROLLS

There's a button in chat, it's called ignore, and it's your friend

On CLIQUES born on forums

They are on EVERY forum. Yes, one here too, and more than one probably. I like to think of myself as the "Clique of CKA", meaning I try to fit in everywhere, but thats just me, and I'm sure i'm guilty of "clique-ishness" too, as much as I disdain them. It's human nature to want to belong

On CONTRIBUTOR medals here and on Fauna

On a personal level I've been a contributor on both, no longer here as it expired, and with my wife not working to finish up her last semester of Nursing school I simply can not swing 25 bucks. I put my snakes in brumation early, rigging my basement to draw cold outside air over my rack for no better reason that I'm at a point where buying feeders is tough. I've always thought it was a good idea to contribute here because it has been hands down THE BEST CORN SNAKE site, period. As far as any "perks", such as access to "The Insiders Club", or even just to have a shiny medallion, they were just added bonuses. I've always felt it a worthwhile contribution and am looking forward to being able to continue. As far as the Google ads they just don't bother me, but thats me


JMHO after wading through all the pages on this thread it really seems like everything has been blown a little out of proportion. We all can't be living on this site 24/7, be adults, and get all worked up over the Internet, can we? This site HAS been more....hostile is not the word I'm looking for, but...I don't know, but the air here has been such that I've started posting on Kingsnake's corn forum again lately

I guess FWIW it's Rich Z's site, like it or not like, and there are plenty of places to go elsewhere if you don't. But to get all upset about stuff that happens "on the 'Net" is taking it too personally. I know I'll continue to post here (and elsewhere), answering newbs posts remembering I asked the same dumb@ss question when I was a newb, and using my buddy the "ignore" button when I feel necessary in chat, when I have time to. JMHO folks, and I'll be damned if I'm picking any sides to this either.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Gee, I can't imagine why someone would take you calling them a "rectum faced pygme" as a personal attack......

If you didn't notice Rich, she put a at the end, symbolizing that it wasn't to be taken in such a harsh way...isn't that what you say gintha did? hmmm...7 day ban when it's directed at you, a laugh when it's directed at somebody else. maybe now you can see it from another point of view? nah, prob not

Originally Posted by Mary-Beth

A hate fest Rich, really? You interpreted that as a hate fest but a comment about hitting someone with a large board is just a joke?

If I recall correctly only one person said anything negative about you in that thread.

Sorry, I read that thread and that is my assessment of it. Shame I didn't have the forethought to capture it as it has been deleted.

Originally Posted by Mary-Beth

I can't speak for others, but they've already given reasons that have nothing to do with google ads or a chat room.

And I believe I have addressed them here.

Originally Posted by Mary-Beth

As for me, you should KNOW why I'm feeling ignored and uncomfortable - and it has nothing to do with anything in this thread.

Well maybe I SHOULD, but I don't. Please tell me.