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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

Ultra Mystery...
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Old 07-31-2004, 07:59 PM   #91
Menhir
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat
The trick is finding some double-homozygous ultras...

-Kat
Why should that be hard work?
If you find an Amel - let's say not het. Ultra (in which way ever, which shouldn't be that hard for Ultra) perhaps a proven breeder.
What are the possibilities?

(I write Hypo to indicate, that you can distingush the hatchlings from normals because of less black pigment!!! Cause we don't know yet, wheter they hom Ultras and hetUltra+Amel look different and so on....)
If they are Allels:
Homo Ultra should lead to 100% Hypo
Het Ultra & Amel should lead to 50% Hypo, 50% Amel

If they are NOT allels (and Hypo masks Amel):
Homo Ultra => 100% Normals
Homo Ultra het. Amel => 50% Normals, 50% Amels
Homo Ultra, homo Amels => 100% Amels

4 Ratios that should be distingushable - not?
 
Old 07-31-2004, 08:46 PM   #92
Rich Z
Hmm, although I have used the Ultra animals I have in several breeding projects, I have NEVER bred them with anything that was homozygous for Amelanism. I normally don't bother with breeding anything Hypomelanistic (which is what I considered the Ultra line to be) into Amelanism. Which, in retrospect, had I done this, it may have either clicked on the light bulb, or just driven me crazier. The fact that some of my Ultras are apparently het for Hypomelanism was quite enough as it is.

Actually, I'm not even sure I am grasping all of this entirely, so perhaps others are as well. Perhaps someone can jot down a short "Idiot's Guide to what this Ultra thing really is". I'm not sure I will ever SELL any of these things just for fear someone will ask me what they get when they breed it to a Butter Motley het for Hypo Stripe, or something along that line....
 
Old 07-31-2004, 08:53 PM   #93
Menhir
Writing an Idiots Guide for RichZ is a strange feeling, huh? ~lol~

To shorten it up, use a Amel where you can be 99% shure it's not involved with Ultra.
Take some kind of Ultra, whatever you want.

If you get Amels and Ultras, the chances are good, that it is the same allel.
If you get Normals or just Amels, they are not the same allel.

That's not an idiots guide but the first thing how I would start to "proof".
If you get 100% Ultra, this would really be some kind of q.e.d. - with 50% Ultra and 50% Amel, we would go into the direction of "what if it is het." and so on - I think thats why Kat mentioned using a homo Ultra animal. But imho, that not neccesary.

Greetings
 
Old 07-31-2004, 09:16 PM   #94
elaphe4herps
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menhir
Writing an Idiots Guide for RichZ is a strange feeling, huh? ~lol~


From Hurley's spreadsheet though, no one has bred a homo ultra to a homo amel. . Worth a try?
 
Old 07-31-2004, 09:26 PM   #95
ecreipeoj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menhir
Why should that be hard work?
I agree this should not be that hard to test breed for.

If they are not alleles then you should get 25% normals in the clutch when they are bred together even if they are both het for the other trait. The only possible way that you would not get normals would be if both parents were homo for a compatable morph like amel, Hypo or even Ultra.

If they are alleles, in any combo you can come up with, the clutch will be all hypos and amels. Ultra X Amel= all Hypos, Ultramel X Amel= half hypo, half amels.

We already have some breeding that have produced these results.

Don S: Ultra Motley X Butter = 8 amels and 13 hypos

Jason: Opal X Ultra = 12 Hypos

I could not find Jason’s last breeding on Hurley Spread Sheet so I did not use it.

If Ultra and Amels are alleles a normal should not be produced when the two are bred together wheither the Ultra is a “Super”(uu) Ultra or an Ultramel (au). When the Ultras are bred to Hets for amels, it adds proof, but is not conclusive.
 
Old 07-31-2004, 09:33 PM   #96
ecreipeoj
Quote:
Originally Posted by elaphe4herps
From Hurley's spreadsheet though, no one has bred a homo ultra to a homo amel.
I was looking at that too. I think that Jason’s Opal X Ultra would be a Homo Amel X Homo Ultra breeding. Don’s Ultra Motley X Butter, seems to be an Ultramel Motley X Butter breeding.

I can of course come up with alternatives that would produce the same results as Jason’s and Don’s breedings by adding multiple hets or Homos, but until somebody breeds any Ultra X any Homo Amel and gets a normal, I will not be convinced that they are not alleles.
 
Old 07-31-2004, 11:50 PM   #97
Rich Z
OK, so let's suppose that you breed an Ultra to an Amel and get 50 percent amels and 50 percent Ultras. Is that right?

You grow up those Ultras and Amels and do the following breeding:

F2 Ultra x F2 Ultra = ?

F2 Ultra x F2 Amel = ?

Now, let's make this even more interesting and practical.

You breed an Ultra to a Snow corn and get 50 percent Ultras het Anerythrism and 50 percent Amels het Anerythrism. Is that right?

You grow up those Ultras and Amels and do the following breeding:

F2 Ultra het Anerythrism x F2 Ultra het Anerythrism = ?

F2 Ultra het Anerythrism x F2 Amel het Anerythrism = ?

We are going to assume that the Ultra is NOT het for anything else in the above examples.
 
Old 08-01-2004, 12:12 AM   #98
Kat
Quote:
OK, so let's suppose that you breed an Ultra to an Amel and get 50 percent amels and 50 percent Ultras. Is that right?
Nnnno.... if we're assuming that ultra and amel are alleles, and assuming that the ultra is homozygous for ultra, you will get 100% Ultramels.

F2s would be Ultramel X Ultramel, or 50% ultramel, 25% ultra, 25% amel.

Quote:

You breed an Ultra to a Snow corn and get 50 percent Ultras het Anerythrism and 50 percent Amels het Anerythrism. Is that right?
You'd get 100% Ultramels het anery.

F2s would be (and someone please double check me on this)...

1/16 snow
1/16 amel
1/16 ultra anery (appearance unknown)
1/16 ultra
1/8 amel het snow
1/8 ultramel anery (whatever that looks like)
1/8 ultramel
1/8 ultra het anery
1/4 ultramel het anery
Quote:
We are going to assume that the Ultra is NOT het for anything else in the above examples.
Did that.

-Kat
 
Old 08-01-2004, 12:24 AM   #99
elaphe4herps
Hold on here. The way I have been following this is that ultra () X amel (aa) will yield all ultramels (a).

I love Chuck's gifs, so I'll use them to somewhat illustrate.
Also, I am assuming that we are considering the genotype as the ultra.

anyway, the way i have been thinking is...
Ultra () x Amel (aa) = Ultramels (a)

***Ultramels - looks like ultra and amel in the same animal***

Ultramel X Ultramel = 25% amel (aa), 50% ultramel (a), 25% ultra ()

and from there, you can re-create any other breeding experiment with the ultra, amel, and ultramel phenotypes/genotypes. Hopefully in a clutch like this (a X a) the 3 different phenotypes will be discernable from each other, with the ultramels being prevalent.

With anery in the mix !! Hmmm...let me think real quick and while im at it, let me double check my understanding of the ultra, amels and ultramels.

Well, I guess while I was typing, Kat flew through and typed what I was thinking (ESP?!?). So far, I have just re-capped what Kat just said so anways, yes Kat you are right,
Quote:
F2s would be (and someone please double check me on this)...

1/16 snow
1/16 amel
1/16 ultra anery (appearance unknown)
1/16 ultra
1/8 amel het snow
1/8 ultramel anery (whatever that looks like)
1/8 ultramel
1/8 ultra het anery
1/4 ultramel het anery
 
Old 08-01-2004, 12:43 AM   #100
elaphe4herps
Hmm, i had too many pictures in the last post, it wouldn't let me post this:



From breeding an Ultramel het anery to an Ultramel het anery you would get what Kat just stated. I don't know if this will help anyone but I will include the genotypes in paranthesis with "rr"=anery and "RR"=wild type.

1/16 snow (aarr)
1/16 amel (aaRR)
1/16 ultra anery (rr)
1/16 ultra (RR)
1/8 amel het snow (aaRr)
1/8 ultramel anery (arr)
1/8 ultramel (aRR)
1/8 ultra het anery (Rr)
1/4 ultramel het anery (aRr)

BTW- if I am understanding something wrong, PLEASE let me know.
 

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