Kastanie/Mahogany/Golden/Rosy/Bell's Sunrise/Copper Cornundrum

I don't think they are "all the same thing". Others politely disagree.
I concede. There are many persons around who know more than me.
What are your thoughts and convictions and beliefs on this, based on personal breeding outcomes, or looking at pictures online, and other considerations I've not mentioned?
Is there a name for the overall -heavy_on_the_eyes- change of intense color graduation/change from head to tail- which they all express? "KaMoGoRoBeSuCo"? (just taking the first two letters of each in the title of the thread and creating a native American 'sounding' word here...

Thanks,
dp

As with any gene identification I will reserve comment until: A. I can prove it out for myself, or B. A trustworthy second/third/fourth/etc. party, who understands genetics, offers detailed breeding trial notes. With none of that in hand, all comments or suppositions are mute.
You can debate the topic all day long and be no farther along than when you began. Without carefully planned and executed breeding trials it's akin to saying "Because I said so!" otherwise.

Terri

who understands genetics?

That was a rather good post.

What is the formula / what's the (scientific?) criteria for proving a gene?

When conducting breeding trials,
Is there a difference between visual F1 Dominant Trait,
and visual F1 Locality outcomes?

What is the "ideal" other parent when working to prove/disprove a new gene?

You both have great points.......AND I have to AGREE. More breeding trials are needed.

I also agree with Dave that Copper and Kastanie are totally different. You probably need to have them side by side to note the difference. Similar color....probably, but the degree of saturation is different.

Copper Yearling - from a Copper to Copper breeding...



Kastanie Yearling......




As far as Kastanie and Java......next year I will put my pair together and I believe Don will be doing the same thing.

The difficult part is when Mandarin (Amel Kastanie), Tangerine (Amel Java) and Amel Sunrise are in the equation. A few variables eg., depigmentation as they mature and color saturation. I still think Amel Sunrise and Mandarin are different but this is solely on the degree of phenotypic variation. Deeper coloration and depigmentation in the Amel Sunrise when compare to Mandarin.

Here is a picture of a Tangerine Stripe (Amel Java). If you look at the snake the degree of depigmentation is remarkably similar to what you will see in an Amel Sunrise. I hope to find out by breeding trails.





As far as Mahogany and Kastanie.......they do look similar in every aspect of it. Hope Steve Roylance and the other Gurus find out.

Looking forward to seeing other members to JOIN and elaborate on this lovely and rewarding KastacojamanTaniBell mess.....

I am not an expert on this matter but I am more than happy to learn from others....

I am just a Kastanie freak:cheers:

I have a pair of Mahogany but since I do not have any kastanie for comparison I am eagerly waiting on Steve Roylance to breed his mahogany to his kastanie. There are differences even between my pair though. Male has a red wash to his belly and his coloring is darker. The female has a beautiful white belly with all black checkers. Her white creeps just slightly up her sides, not like pied though. I'll try to get pics of that tomorrow.
(mostly I replied so I could follow )

Kastanie X Mahogany has been started. We'll see the results in a few months.

Just to add a little of my opinion, I believe they all might look different because they are all from different locations. If I were to go to Sarasota FL and catch a Corn snake then go to Ft Myers FL and catch another one they will look "Different". Even though they look different they also look the same to me. I also believe if it wasn't the same gene we should be getting "Normals" when breeding them together. Yes there is also the chance they are Allelic.

Again these are just my thoughts. Not saying I'm right or wrong. I also agree with everything stated so far

Here are the pics I took today of my pair. These are F2s
Together, the female is at the top


Female


Female belly, can't see the end but there is no red wash. The nice black and white continues all the way to tip


Male belly, he gets the red wash at end of belly into tail


Male

Here are 2 more comparison shots

side view, see how more visible her white is


female is going up the middle between male's head and tail

Kastanie X Copper

What does the belly look like, Chris?

dreamwallaby said:

What does the belly look like, Chris?

Click to expand...

Whitish belly, almost black checkers with a red "stripe" that splits the belly in half...

Definitely keeping an eye on this thread as I have a suspect Mahogany.

Why should all snakes with the same gene look the same? Why can coppers and kastanie not have the same gene and look different?

Not all amelanistics look the same. Candycanes and ROs look very different, but both are still just amels.
The same should be true with copper/kastanies too.

Candycane, and Amel are not baseline classics. Red Candycanes are out of pure amel corn X heavy gray base Miami locality, siblings bred back together to produce the F2. Orange candycanes contain the emoryii. RO is a selectively bred morph. You are confusing pure baseline classics which have been proven to contain no hets, thus no visual modifiers-- with snakes containing simple recessives. I believe most of us have seen instances of snakes which we have produced/hatched ourselves, in which their color is affected in the F1, by the hets they carry. When showing the differences of the various genes, it is important to make certain that they have no hets, to accurately showcase the true base gene.

Breeding together two similar looking classics results in more similar looking classics, but proves nothing.

One would need to use, for instance, two females: a kastanie and a copper, which have been proven to not contain any hets, which will take some time (years) to prove out in advance of the breeding.
Secondly, for instance, use a pure lavender male, which also, through years of advance test breeding, is proven clean and free of hets. Only then can a clean test breeding be done, by breeding the lavender to the kastanie and the copper. All of those babies will need to be retained and raised, and in the F2s, from each project, when the Sib X sib pairings are made, will the proof of them being the same gene, or different genes, finally become apparent.

I believe this sort of covers what Terri meant by "who understands genetics" meant in her post.

^^ exactly, we are trying to determine if these are different variation within the same morph or are they actually different genes. And this is also why I posted my pair. They are F2 but the red wash on the male differs from the female. I'm not convinced yet that the male contains no other "red" genes, like a red factor or something maybe? I'd like to know if any of the morphs we are discussing have a red wash to the belly? When breeding these morphs, does red wash show in any of the offspring?

dave partington said:

You are confusing pure baseline classics which have been proven to contain no hets, thus no visual modifiers-- with snakes containing simple recessives.

Click to expand...

Not at all. I just said that the variation of the phenotype is big even with snakes that are homozygous for the same single recessive gene.

The recessive gene have its influence on phenotype, but locality or line of breeding also influence phenotype.

If kastanie and copper is the same recessive gene but look different because of different lines/background/polygenetics, you will get F2s that show a spectrum of phenotypes betwen hatchlings from kastanie

If kastanie and copper are not the same gene, but they are co-dominant, then you will get distinct proportions in F2 with some kastanies, some coppers and some codominant copper-kastanies.

If you get proportions of phenotypes in F2 or spectrums of phenotypes answers the questions.

Oh okay then, I misunderstood, like cremesicle and orange candycane are the same thing (both being emoryi +guttata+amel), but are different looking because of the locality 'other parent' base stock. Though using a combination like that for a test would yield results all over the place anyways.

Not to get off subject, but I've had some really nice Serpenco brand candycanes that were orange on white. Rich said there was no emoryi involved.

As far as recessive hets influencing phenotype, if that was the case they wouldn't be recessive.


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Unless of course, I'm begging the question, just look at the variation between the American and German lines of kastanie. There's quite a difference there!


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