Random thoughts on corns and their care

I kept my first corn snake as a yard collected pet in the 70's and to memory, I've produced at least one clutch of colubrids since 1999. I've been doing this for a while now and I have made a lot of mistakes that I have learned from. In spite of this, a year has yet to go by where I haven't learned something, so I would never say I have mastered keeping these "beginner pets." In fact, many of my most solid beliefs have changed in recent years. A few of my notions have become more concrete, of course. I may write further on any of these topics later, but just off the top of my head...

Things I've changed my mind on, and no longer believe:
1) A varied diet is beneficial to corns.
2) "Hobby" snakes lack the vigor of earlier generations from wild.
3) Bloodred has a tendency to be weak genetically.
4) Inbreeding has innate negative consequences.
5) There is some, even if minor, benefit to live or pre-killed vs. frozen mice.
6) Homemade racks can be built better and cheaper than commercial racks (at least by someone with my skill set).
7) 7 to 10 days before feeding or handling a reptile is needed to let them settle in to a new enclosure.


Things I feel more strongly about:

1) They need exercise!
2) Feeding outside the enclosure isn't the greatest idea for many snakes.
3) Given a proper temperature to move to, they will not burn themselves, even with "too hot" of a hot spot.
4) A percentage of babies that hatch should never be bred (subjective as that statement is).
5) UVB lighting is not needed for snakes. (In fact, it can be harmful)
6) Most health issues with captive snakes are temperature related, and the industry makes few products for people with one reptile. (as a pet shop owner, I can't offer an economical entry level thermostat-controlled snake viv.)
7) Cohabitation is a bad idea.


That should get the ball rolling. I suspect many of you "old-timers" will agree with some of these points and take issue with others, I'm curious as to your thoughts.

I'm not at all an old-timer, but I kept my first corn in 1995. These are the things that books and other reptile keepers told us were biblical truth back then, and are no longer the case:

1) reptile carpet is the best substrate
2) "Don't worry, you can just weigh down that screen lid and he'll be fine."
3) pre-killed is the best food
4) "They're not hungry after they shed."

(Some explanation on the last one: we were told that, so we only fed our adult corn a single pinky after he shed, after he'd skipped a meal while in blue. He wolfed it down, and escaped his cage that night to get his entree--my mom's prize red-factor singing canary. She made us take him back to the pet shop.)

Escapes... yet another reason I like commercial enclosures!

Could I ask about your thoughts on feeding in or out of the viv? I can probably guess why you think it's not good to feed outside the viv, but I'd like to know about your experience. I hope to learn something new

I'll tell you why I _like_ feeding outside the viv I get a weight on each snake every time. Since my feeding schedule runs strongly on weight, this is important to me. I also get to remove the water bowl and scrub it, and remove/replace paper towels or substrate, or even just do a thorough poop-check/hide inspection without the snake's "help." I _do_ believe snakes who are fed in the viv come to hope/associate that _any_ time you open the viv, food is coming. I think they will bite first and apologize later. I'm sure most substrate ingestions are not harmful, but they aren't beneficial, either. And finally, with 60 snakes now, and up to 100 babies in season, if they weren't removed for feeding, they just wouldn't get handled and kissed and photographed as often.

I'm familiar with Chip's method of heating. Speaking of unregulated heating, I think it is dependent on having big enough enclosures for the snakes to move away from the heat. I'm pretty sure a shoebox sized hatchling bin isn't big enough, and I have my doubts that a 66 quart adult bin is. And in fact we have seen time and again the deaths that occur when a rack thermostat fails. Aside from that, it is not energy efficient to have a heating device running full blast 24 hours a day. Now I think it would be beneficial to offer cornsnakes, especially younger ones, a hot spot of about 90F IF it didn't heat the cool end of the enclosure up above 80. Actually, they probably have a much wider range of temperature acceptance than we typically provide for them. It is quite surely more important for reptiles to have enough heat- cold is very stressful for reptiles.

Nanci said:

I'll tell you why I _like_ feeding outside the viv I get a weight on each snake every time. Since my feeding schedule runs strongly on weight, this is important to me. I also get to remove the water bowl and scrub it, and remove/replace paper towels or substrate, or even just do a thorough poop-check/hide inspection without the snake's "help." I _do_ believe snakes who are fed in the viv come to hope/associate that _any_ time you open the viv, food is coming. I think they will bite first and apologize later. I'm sure most substrate ingestions are not harmful, but they aren't beneficial, either. And finally, with 60 snakes now, and up to 100 babies in season, if they weren't removed for feeding, they just wouldn't get handled and kissed and photographed as often.

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I don't have anything like your experience, but your points about weights and cleaning mirror my own, and as my animals are often around children at school, it's important to me to minimize misunderstandings about feedings.

Amanda47 said:

Could I ask about your thoughts on feeding in or out of the viv? I can probably guess why you think it's not good to feed outside the viv, but I'd like to know about your experience. I hope to learn something new

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I didn't say it's "not good," I said it's not the greatest idea for many snakes! I have a number of snakes that are simply too nervous to eat after being moved, so they wouldn't be good candidates. A spooked snake isn't going to put itself in the vulnerable position of having a mouse filling up its only defense. At the other end of this spectrum are snakes (this is especially common with getula kings) go into "hunt mode" after eating, and will bite anything that moves while in that mode. With those, feeding outside the enclosure will only increase your chances of being bitten.

From a health perspective, I worry about contamination, and to sterilize 60-100 rubbermaids a week would add a ton of time to feeding. Probably the biggest reason of all is, while experimenting with it, I had the first adult escape in many years! I don't bash feeding outside the viv, but I have to roll my eyes when a relatively new keeper tells a completely new keeper they are committing some sort of cardinal sin for not doing it. If you have a confident snake with a strong feeding response, it really comes down to preference.

Being that I'm still fairly new to the hobby, I started out with a lot of the same thoughts that you took years to develop. It's interesting how much things change over time, as we all learn what works, doesn't work, and ultimately strive to better the care of our animals.

That said, this one really did strike me.

Chip said:

Things I've changed my mind on, and no longer believe:
6) Homemade racks can be built better and cheaper than commercial racks (at least by someone with my skill set).

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I, not all that long ago, set out with the very gung-ho mentality that I had everything it takes to build all my own racks. I'm a fairly handy person, and very detail oriented. No reason so spend money on commercial racks! Ever! I built my first rack, a four-slot melamine system, and it's still great. It's holding up perfectly. It still does everything I ever asked it to do, and looks fairly nice to boot.

Then two years ago, I bought a ten-slot Animal Plastics rack. And... I'm in love. I probably will never build another rack, aside from modifying the homemade one I already have.

Sure, I paid a bit more to buy the rack than I would have spent to build something with the same capacity, and I could still very easily build a rack to meet similar specifications, but the final product of the AP rack is so worth the difference. I can't even really explain what the real difference *is*. The only thing I can think of is the weight (my four-slot homemade rack is easily twice as heavy as the ten-slot AP rack), but it's not like that was ever a direct problem. I don't know. I just know that the AP rack is one of the nicest, most functional things I've ever bought. It really is better than my homemade one, regardless of how proud I am for building it.

I still use my handy skills to build other snake-related things (usually equipment storage and I'm probably going to add-on a hatchling system to my existing homemade rack), but despite my abilities, I really think I'm leaving full-size snake racks to the professionals from now on.

Sorry, that was kind of long and pointless, long story short, I agree with you! And to think I thought I would NEVER buy a commercial rack system. lol

This is a great thread Chip!
I'm with you on feeding outside the enclosure. I do not frown upon those who do, but I feel it is unnecessary. I do weight & photograph my animals on a somewhat regular basis, especially the babies, but I do that on a separate day. I will generally go through on a day to weigh & photograph animals, every few weeks or so. Some of my animals would not eat if I moved them to another enclosure to eat.

Edit to add: Feeding outside of the enclosure is time consuming. ("Ain't nobody got time for that!") It's much quicker to just offer food in the enclosure.

And I love my AP racks! LOL
I have a couple cages on order from AP, for my Carpet Pythons & I cannot wait to get them!

Each of my snakes has a dedicated feeding tub with its name written on it. These bins are actually part of my Florida Class III disaster plan for evacuation, which I am required to have to be able to sell reptiles in Florida. They came in handly when I had to remove everyone to have my ducts cleaned! If anyone poops in their bin, it gets bleached.

I agree with everyone so far... (call my indecisive!)
I feed my corn outside of her vive - possibly a specific case in which she was ESPECIALLY cage-defensive, and no longer is since I have been doing this - and I feed my ball python inside his vive.

I like Nanci's point about the handling, though. Not every breeder is going to be able to handle each hatchling or snake routinely (unfortunately...) but for those who can I think it's a great idea.

Non breeder weighing in here. I have to agree with Nanci on feeding outside the viv. Best chance to spot clean and inspect their Vivs are while my boys are feeding. Each has their own designated feeding box. King (my oldest) is particularly inquisitive when I'm entering his viv and can be voracious, so I'd rather not give him any incentives to strike while I'm around his viv. Granted he's also a king snake which I've come to learn has more "spunk" than most of my corns.
To avoid stress though I have on ocassion fed my youngest corns in their Vivs but I definitely prefer to remove them for feeding.

Oh yeah!

Nanci said:

I'm familiar with Chip's method of heating. Speaking of unregulated heating...

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Nothing I keep is on unregulated heating, lol! I did run an experimental rack wide open for a year, but it isn't like I just use big cages and crank them. I doubt you meant that the way it reads.

Nanci said:

I think it is dependent on having big enough enclosures for the snakes to move away from the heat. I'm pretty sure a shoebox sized hatchling bin isn't big enough, and I have my doubts that a 66 quart adult bin is.

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I'm certain a shoebox isn't, but a 66 quart is, unless maybe in a warm room. I can't recall ever seeing snakes against the front, where substrate temps are in the low to mid 70's.

No- I know you have your animals on thermostats- it just came out that way, Chip.

I must be more interesting for snakes to watch, then- mine are always out staring at me!

If anyone wonders, Chip has several of my babies and I don't worry about them in the slightest- they are THRIVING! People just do stuff differently sometimes. I think this forum gets a lot more riled up when it's a new person with their first snake who steps away from what most view as conventional care. When someone who has years of experience behind them, their methods obviously work for them. Robert Applegate cohabs, in elaborate set-ups, and who am I to say he's doing it wrong???

Chip said:

notions have become more concrete

[A]Things I've changed my mind on, and no longer believe:[/B]
3) Bloodred has a tendency to be weak genetically.
4) Inbreeding has innate negative consequences.
5) There is some, even if minor, benefit to live or pre-killed vs. frozen mice.
6) Homemade racks can be built better and cheaper than commercial racks (at least by someone with my skill set).
7) 7 to 10 days before feeding or handling a reptile is needed to let them settle in to a new enclosure.


Things I feel more strongly about:

3) Given a proper temperature to move to, they will not burn themselves, even with "too hot" of a hot spot.
4) A percentage of babies that hatch should never be bred (subjective as that statement is).
7) Cohabitation is a bad idea.


That should get the ball rolling. I suspect many of you "old-timers" will agree with some of these points and take issue with others, I'm curious as to your thoughts.

Click to expand...

Good thread.
From the {A} category:
3) Bloodred has a tendency to be weak genetically.

I suspect a lot of the "early bloodreds" were highly inbred, which may have led to the concept that they were "genetically weak". Nowadays, since they have been out-crossed into so many differing bloodlines, there are many available that are very un-related. So putting two together appears to result in healthier offspring. I also suspect that when "highly un-related" bloodreds, or bloodred X het bloodred, are put together, this is what causes the "bloodred gene" to split into pied, red coating, diffusion, (***) and the base color of bloodred minus the red-coating, but still with split belly checkers. Not touching Masque. And I can't help but wonder how many other genes can be split. Time will tell.

Reduce the visual black and isolate it away from red-coating, diffusion, white belly, pied -while utilizing the dark old-school bloodreds genetics- and it could pass for strawberry. :sidestep:

4) Inbreeding has innate negative consequences.

A lot of breeders had problems with stargazer, but then a lot of the early SK were heavily inbred to reproduce the gene. Possibly related to the quip about bloodred being genetically inferior in the morph's early years, I am going to disagree here. But then by inbreeding I am assuming that you mean inbreeding beyond sibXsib F3.

5) There is some, even if minor, benefit to live or pre-killed vs. frozen mice.

Their nutritional value is better, no doubt about it. Vitamin supplements, wow. What a difference those make, for the better. Plus, you probably know if the food was fed corn and soy meal, or a more normal diet for a real mouse.

6. Racks.
Yup. But I live to the south of you. Snapped down clamps + specific temp controlled (entire) rooms are more cost effective then all the melamine. Just stack them up. Males on the bottom, females above. Some shelves are good for babies and juvies in smaller housing.

7) 7 to 10 days before feeding or handling a reptile is needed to let them settle in to a new enclosure.

For a baby less then a year in age which has never been force-fed AND has no feeding issues, yes.

There are many plants and animals in trade, horticulture, this thing we do, etc, which are not hardy outside of controlled&conditioned environmental situations. Re-conditioning once they leave place A for place B. Kinda like how a lot of adult females, if shipped pre-winter/post-lay, will breed the following year, but, if they are sent from place A to place B in the spring, they may not lay fertile clutches. Just an observation, nothing truly scientific.

I find that hardy stock needs 2-5 days to settle in. Adults usually feed right out of the fedex box without incident IMHO.

From the B group:
3) Given a proper temperature to move to, they will not burn themselves, even with "too hot" of a hot spot.

With heated rooms instead of miles of fire hazardous UTH stuff and wires galore, there is no burning of snakes. A fan and a ceramic heater on a concrete pad saved me how much time and money in all that other stuff. But still not practical for a keeper of one pet. Is there something wrong or hurtful to a snake to let it experience the seasons? To slow down growth in winter, feed less, sleep/brumate we call it now/ awhile? Would allowing the snake to have more naturalistic temperature conditioning be harmful to them, or weed out the 'not as hardy as I have led myself to believe' stock?

4) A percentage of babies that hatch should never be bred (subjective as that statement is).

This sorta covers everything I've already ranted on. A portion of nearly every clutch. Should (assumed genetically) weak hatchlings be cornsnakes forced alive? But then never bred? We have no control what happens once they leave us.

7) Cohabitation is a bad idea.
For cornsnakes, yes. Generally. There are exceptions to every rule, especially where living organisms are concerned, however, rules are not based on exceptions. And this statement just invalidated all that other dibble i posted here.

Thanks for the free candy.


Brain candy, that is.

dave partington said:

Vitamin supplements, wow. What a difference those make, for the better.

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What sort of vitamins do you use?

I'll go. I use Exo-Terra's multivitamin for reptiles. In very low amounts, since it is difficult to measure/administer. When just dusting the rear end of a mouse, exactly how much is ingested is impossible to measure. I also use a calcium supplement on my females from the time they come out of brumation until about 5-6 weeks after laying. Again, I use a lot less than the package recommends, but feel positive it helps prevent dystocia. Nothing prevents it as much as exercise, though! Curious to hear what Dave uses/likes.

Whoops, sorry, dropped this thread and just found it again.
I use Reptivite from beanfarm.
Interesting note on the calcium Chip, thanks for the morsel of goodness.
http://beanfarm.com/index.php?cPath=1199_1200&osCsid=fa22f8f673b8debb061e43c89aaed682
if that doesn't work,
http://www.beanfarm.com