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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

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Old 09-20-2013, 04:42 AM   #11
diamondlil
Stunning corns!
 
Old 09-20-2013, 10:25 AM   #12
dave partington
Quote:
Originally Posted by notserp View Post
1. What are 'red mask' and 'red factor' ?
2. Are they new single ressesive gene mutations?
1. I'm working with a lot of them, and I'm not the right person to ask, either. Every year hatches out more confusion.
2. Rarely, yes. Mostly, no. Traits are a player.

The first question ( What are the names of all of the red and pink factors, genes, and traits?) would be a good thread starter.
 
Old 09-20-2013, 01:38 PM   #13
notserp
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave partington View Post
1. I'm working with a lot of them, and I'm not the right person to ask, either. Every year hatches out more confusion.
2. Rarely, yes. Mostly, no. Traits are a player.

The first question ( What are the names of all of the red and pink factors, genes, and traits?) would be a good thread starter.
I would have to agree
 
Old 09-21-2013, 01:55 PM   #14
Chet
I have been trying to find answers to this too, so here's the info I have.

**PREFACE** I expect any corn people on this forum to correct me if I'm not accurate with my knowledge or info...please do that and don't be shy. This info needs to be accurate and sharing is the best way. I like a healthy discussion and if I’m wrong on something I need to know this.

Marsha started her line is from Steve Wagner and Don Soderberg. Don credits his coral line to Jim Stelpflug. Regardless of all the players it seems that a red/pink intensifier was located. From here selective breeding was done. Language and terms should be agreed upon, but that's probably on a different post or at least for the original players to iron out.

I agree that the names got confusing: salmon, coral, neon, starburst, red mask, red factor, strawberry. Some do refer to specific lines under the main group: ie: Snows = Neon, Starburst. Corals = Salmon, Champaign and now we are adding Cotton Candy if you will from breeding both together.

Obviously we know that these lines came from amel, anery, and hypo or strawberry or some combination. I've been reading some older post by Dave Partington and he's got a lot of experience with these lines and I assume plenty discussions with Jeff Galewood about the JMG line. It would be awesome if Jeff himself, Don, Marsha, Steve, Jim, Graham or other players in this morph could comment and discuss their findings or breed trials. Based on some older posts Dave believes that Hypo is the influencer in the Coral Ghost line (again assuming I understood and read those post correctly) ** Please correct me if I’m wrong in that.

It also seemed like Chuck and Connie Pretzel were doing a lot with Strawberry back in 2009/2010. They might have a lot of info about what they found or noticed. I am also sure I am leaving out others in the forum who have/are working in this morph’s.

I have talked to Tara Smith a lot about the Strawberry gene and how that influences Red Factor and color pigment. So for the sake of a common language I'm going to state that the Strawberry Allele in the homo form shows the Red Factor and intensifies the Red or Pink seen in the homo state. I'm under the impression that Strawberry is allelic to Hypo. So that if the snake is not showing the Strawberry Allele it still might be het for the Strawberry Allele (AKA Red Factor, Red Mask..Etc). Obviously, if neither alleles are present then that snake would not carry or transfer that intensifier in it’s progeny?

My Question: Has anyone breed a Het strawberry gene (AKA het Red Factor) allele not present in the homo form but believed to be a carrier in the allele X a known Strawberry AKA Red Factor snake? What did you get or find?

My Findings:

I have 2 females from the same breeding of Strawberry that I purchased from Don Soderberg in 2009. Don said they were produced by Jim Stelpflug at South West Wisconsin Reptiles, and were from the original line that Jim’s pink snows AKA corals were found from.

One female looks “redder” then the other. Tara has a few of these and she also has a few other look “redder” then the other. So, here is where I believe the Alleles are at play. I think I have one Strawberry with a homo form of the “Red Factor” allele. The other Strawberry either has the allele in a het form or it’s not present at all.

FEMALE 1---
I bred the Strawberry that I believe is Homo for the allele to my Neon/Starburst male From Marsha. I off course only got normals and amels. In the amels, I have a few that appear to have a deeper red factor AKA red wash over the other amels. I am not sure if this is the homo form of the Red Factor allele or just what would normally happen if for example I bred Hypo to the same male? The normal’s are dark and I don’t see anything that is interest in there Homo state.

FEMALE 2---
This is my lighter Strawberry. I bred this to a sunkissed from Tara. It produced all normals. Several of these normals have sunkissed affecting patterns and saddles. I do see some richer was on a few. I will ask Tara to comment on what she has seen as well. I can’t say for sure that some are redder. I see a brighter more intense color on a few with a orange /reddish wash. These few snakes jump out at you over the few that don’t have it. Is this just sunkissed or the Red Factor allele present in the Homo form?

FEMALE 3--
I then bred a hypo from Jeff Mohr (via Rick Z) to a Coral Ghost from JMG. I got an entire clutch of these chocolate, maroon looking babies. They did not look like normals. As they have grown and I have watched them and there color change. I have several that clearly have a red wash to them and deep red in the saddles and pink/red tons in the areas surrounding the saddles. I asked Tara what she thought and she believes they are Strawberry. It’s clear that most of them 4 of the 6 have a red wash; 2 are red but not as red as the others. So on a corn calculator it says they should all be Strawberry. If they are Strawberry then I wonder how I would get homo strawberry from hypo X coral ghost. Maybe the hypo carries the Allele? Or maybe that is just what decided to show itself. Or maybe Dave might have a way to explain this and that it is not Strawberry?

If any of you guys have ideas or info on this, please share your comments. I really think this is a great topic to discuss.

PS: sorry for any spelling or grammar errors
 
Old 09-21-2013, 05:13 PM   #15
notserp
Wow, thats alot to process for someone with my knowledge but it was super helpfull and very interesting. Thanks for all you time, great topic. Thanks for all the effort and time you put in. Do you have any pics of some of the hatchlings that have grown up a bit?
 
Old 09-21-2013, 05:16 PM   #16
notserp
What are the genes in the snake in your avatar pic. Is it a Snow with some sort of hypo(red factor) gene in it?
 
Old 09-21-2013, 05:33 PM   #17
notserp
I'm very confused. I always thought that a Coral Snow was just amel, anery, hypo. What does the name Coral Snow represent now. I've search a lot of places but the info is always different. I have a year old snow that still has quite a bit of pink and peachy type colors and I was thinking she could possably be that combo of amel, anery, hypo which would be great for a male I have. He is an Anery het amel, hypo. She's probably just a normal Snow. I don't have much experiance with Snows, any thoughts? Sorry its hard to see the colors, I have an old camera and I also don't know how to use it. I always just leave it on the auto setting and the results are dissapointing.
 
Old 09-21-2013, 05:37 PM   #18
Chip
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chet View Post
I agree that the names got confusing: salmon, coral, neon, starburst, red mask, red factor, strawberry. Some do refer to specific lines under the main group: ie: Snows = Neon, Starburst. Corals = Salmon, Champaign and now we are adding Cotton Candy if you will from breeding both together.
The names are getting a bit overwhelming, IMO. Unless all progeny look the same, why have a name that doesn't apply to most/all members of that race? Marketing, I'm sure, but I suspect some of these mutations are the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chet View Post
Obviously we know that these lines came from amel, anery, and hypo or strawberry or some combination. I've been reading some older post by Dave Partington and he's got a lot of experience with these lines and I assume plenty discussions with Jeff Galewood about the JMG line. It would be awesome if Jeff himself, Don, Marsha, Steve, Jim, Graham or other players in this morph could comment and discuss their findings or breed trials. Based on some older posts Dave believes that Hypo is the influencer in the Coral Ghost line (again assuming I understood and read those post correctly) ** Please correct me if I’m wrong in that.
I believe you are correct in the strawberry being an influencer in coral ghosts. But (coral/salmon/neon/strawberry/pink/fill in the blank name) snows are not (always) homo hypo, which eliminates strawberry as being what adds the pink color... at least in EVERY line. What gets confusing is pink snows appear to have been achieved by more than one method.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chet View Post
I have talked to Tara Smith a lot about the Strawberry gene and how that influences Red Factor and color pigment. So for the sake of a common language I'm going to state that the Strawberry Allele in the homo form shows the Red Factor and intensifies the Red or Pink seen in the homo state. I'm under the impression that Strawberry is allelic to Hypo. So that if the snake is not showing the Strawberry Allele it still might be het for the Strawberry Allele (AKA Red Factor, Red Mask..Etc). Obviously, if neither alleles are present then that snake would not carry or transfer that intensifier in it’s progeny?
I'm not sure I am on board with this, particularly the part in bold. Red factor and strawberry are NOT the same gene. I've had red factor normals, strawberry only shows up in hypo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by notserp View Post
Wow, thats alot to process for someone with my knowledge but it was super helpfull and very interesting. Thanks for all you time, great topic. Thanks for all the effort and time you put in. Do you have any pics of some of the hatchlings that have grown up a bit?
Here is a hypo with the strawberry gene at hatching, second photo is about a year later.


To my eye, the strawberry hypos look emoryi influenced.
 
Old 09-21-2013, 06:51 PM   #19
notserp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip View Post
The names are getting a bit overwhelming, IMO. Unless all progeny look the same, why have a name that doesn't apply to most/all members of that race? Marketing, I'm sure, but I suspect some of these mutations are the same thing.


I believe you are correct in the strawberry being an influencer in coral ghosts. But (coral/salmon/neon/strawberry/pink/fill in the blank name) snows are not (always) homo hypo, which eliminates strawberry as being what adds the pink color... at least in EVERY line. What gets confusing is pink snows appear to have been achieved by more than one method.

I'm not sure I am on board with this, particularly the part in bold. Red factor and strawberry are NOT the same gene. I've had red factor normals, strawberry only shows up in hypo.

To my eye, the strawberry hypos look emoryi influenced.
Very nice snake. Do you think my yearling is just a normal Snow?
 
Old 09-21-2013, 07:13 PM   #20
juliegarner
They are beautiful xx
 

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