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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available. |
Ultra Mystery...
07-30-2004, 04:11 PM
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#61
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On the definition of "allele"
Alleles are different variations of the same gene. Ultrahypo and amelanistic would not be the same allele. There would be three different alleles -- the normal allele, the amelanistic allele, and the hypomelanistic allele. All of the three alleles have the same location in the genome, the a (for amelanistic) locus. Of course, no more than two of the three alleles would be found in any individual corn snake.
This assumes that ultrahypo and amelanistic are actually alleles.
I vote for tabling the name question until after ultrahypo and amelanistic are proven to be alleles.
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07-30-2004, 04:50 PM
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#62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpwidgets
This is why I wanted to make a genetics chapter that explains it from the ground up. IMO my book's Quick Genetics section will become more and more valuable as these types of new mutants are discovered. If you look at it in the way everyone likes to think of recessive traits, it's a bunch of total nonsense. If you look at it the "right" way, it totally falls into place.
The correct terminology is: (see also, page 18 of my book)
When a gene pair is made of two identical copies, it is homozygous.
When a gene pair is made of two different copies, it is heterozygous.
(Those are the only two cases that are possible. It is also impossible for them to be double homo or double hetero on a single locus.)
Therefore, Homozygotes are:
AA
aa
uu
and Heterozygotes are:
Aa
Au
au
It's the same situation as Motley Stripe. Check out the "Mag" demonstration of alleles on pages 16-17.
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Jackson Labs has a web page on gene nomenclature for the mouse at http://www.informatics.jax.org/mgihome/nomen/gene.shtml. Sections 1 and 3 are the most useful to us. It has answers to questions that haven't been thought of in herp genetics.
Upper and lower case letters were all right for Mendel, but the system breaks down when there are three or more alleles at a given locus. Following the mouse genetics symbology, three alleles could be symbolized like so:
normal allele = a*+ (the letter a with a plus sign as a superscript)
ultrahypo = a*u (the letter a with the letter u as a superscript)
amelanistic = a
(I haven't been able to figure out how to actually do superscripts on this forum. So the * character serves to set off the superscript.)
A corn snake that is heterozygous ultrahypo/amelanistic would be a*u//a.
I haven't seen Serpwidget's book, yet, but the same principles would be followed for motley and its two alleles.
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07-30-2004, 05:27 PM
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#63
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I have to vote with Paul at this point, hold off on naming until we get some more proof.
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07-30-2004, 07:14 PM
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#64
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A couple of things:
1- You're welcome to use these for the superscripts.
(img)http://serpwidgets.com/freepics/au.gif(/img)
and
(img)http://serpwidgets.com/freepics/aplus.gif(/img)
So the genotypes would be
//
//a
//
a//a
//
a//
2- Not trying to be a wiseguy, but what specific breeding trial(s) would need to be done that haven't yet been reported? IIRC, a single cross of Motley X Stripe was sufficient proof that they're alleles. We're now looking at something like 25 crosses of Ultra stuff. What cross with what results would be necessary?
3- An "Ultramelanistic" corn would look like a black ratsnake...
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07-30-2004, 08:28 PM
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#65
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I'm just thinking of another Bloodred fiasco, name something too quickly and it may end up being less then correct.
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07-30-2004, 08:36 PM
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#66
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AMEN to avoiding impulsive names . . . .
It won't hurt to continue to solicit breeding data before we jump the gun and name this wrong. What if someone that has more data is on his/her summer vacation and could throw a wrench in the works in a few weeks? What do we gain by getting this situation name tagged "yesterday"?
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07-30-2004, 10:56 PM
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#67
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Wild Type already has a name, Amel has a name, and Ultra has a name.
I think the only name that people are trying to figure out is what to call the presumed heterozygous a// . I'm not as concerned about that, because it's like arguing over what to call the offspring of Motley X Stripe. Personally, I will probably just call it Ultra/Amel.
It will be interesting to see if the // and a// genotypes can be visually identified and separated from clutches. I'm not sure it will always be possible, just like it's not possible to look at a motley and say that you know it doesn't have a striped parent, "just by looking at it."
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07-30-2004, 10:59 PM
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#68
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Don, the odd (caramel/no caramel) results you posted earlier kinda fell out of sight/out of mind. My comment on that is that it's reasonable to think the caramel didn't pop up in the other clutch out of "bad luck." Definitely worth checking into, since there are two reasonable explanations.
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Rich, are these by chance related to the Ultra lines, too? The JPEGs are named "amel hypo."
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7444
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07-30-2004, 11:13 PM
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#69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpwidgets
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Honestly, I have no idea. I noticed those pics a little while back and was curious about how those babies turned out. But darned if I could remember what clutches they came from nor if I even kept any of them. Sometimes when I get completely overwhelmed with babies, I just start throwing things into bags and shipping them out. So I guess they just turned out looking like regular Hypos, and I certainly didn't have any reason to hang onto them.
I tried a few years ago to take notes along with the picture taking sessions of the babies hatching out, but I soon learned that it does me no good at all if I lose those notes. :/
So, sorry, but I have no idea at all about those guys.
BTW, Chuck, good job figuring this one out. I still have some fuzziness around the edges about it, but hopefully I'll get some time to pose some questions when I can get my brain wrapped around it. In the meantime, what is needed to pretty much prove this? Might as well start making plans for breeding projects next season.
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07-30-2004, 11:58 PM
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#70
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It will be very interesting to see if we'll be able to tell what is what in the Ultra/amel mutation. I have a feeling it will be very subtle, if decernable at all.
I wonder how this fits in with the T-/T+ albinism?
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