Ultra Mystery...

Sean Bradley's snakes. . . .

We have been sitting on pins and needles and checking this thread everytime eleven O'clock rolls around. Your tease is working big time. I want to see the "Amazing Hypo" and the simular results to the Ultra results!

I want to be sure I have all the facts from Sean before posting. Otherwise, I'll have given everyone preconceived notions about something he'd have to correct. My memory is perfect. It's just real short. Since he told me about this line two years ago, I want to verify the details before posting the results.

I can't wait to see your results.

We now have 1.1 hatchlings and 1.0 yearling of the "Strawberry" so if there aren't any conclusive results next year, in '06 we'll probably be adding our own test breedings to the pool again.

IF the coral snows are from the Strawberry lines, I would put my money on Strawberry being incompatible to Falcon's Ultra. You'd think it would raise serious suspicions if every time or almost every time two coral snows were bred together they produced amels and non-amelanistics (ghost-looking things in this case.) eh?

Ok, here we go . . .

I didn't talk to Sean today, but he's tried to catch me. We're both busy this time of year.

Two years ago, I bought 4.2 hatchlings from Sean. He said they were related to what he was hoping were "T+" albinos. I don't know how related, but we'll find out if he's reading this thread.

I bred one of the four males to an amelanistic that was the product of breeding a butter to an anerythristic (known het. for amel.). She is number 712 and he was called SB since I have not yet given him a breeding designator. Even though Sean told me they were not from caramel variants, I bred this pair thinking I'd surely get some. How many corns have that much gold/yellow without being a product of one of the caramels? Only got 12 babies so I can't say for sure, but if the male from Sean was at least het. for caramel and knowing the mother of this amel is butter, I probably should have gotten at least one caramel looking snake. I got:
6 hypos
3 snows
1 ghost
2 anerythristics

Here is a pic of the pair breeding. Light was horrible, but you can tell what they are. Then, a pic of one of the brothers of that male. Then, a picture of one of the females (smaller) in my hand with one of the males (larger) from last year. The males shot up, but they females were late bloomers. They're finally getting bigger now. They started out with the black pupil and red iris that gives us that "burgundy" look as young. Finally, a pic of the babies from this year. As you can see, out of 12, there were no caramel looking animals. I'm not saying this means the "T+" animals Sean are ultras because I don't know what (if any) hypo genes are in either/both of these adults.

"gold" hypo X snow

I bred that same male to a snow corn. The snow female is from Walter smith. The mother of the snow was that ruby freckled female he had and I'll have to ask Walter again what the father of that one was. I haven't yet photographed the babies, but this pair produced :
6 hypos
3 amels
2 ghosts

I would say that your results in these clutches are consistent with what the Ultra X Amel breedings are producing.

The only way to explain the results other than a common allele, is to add compatible hypos to both parent snakes. Or, we would have to assume that the Yellow Hypos are a common type of known hypo and add the compatible hypo to the other parent snake.

Some of Falcons Ultras are high yellow hypos, which look similar at first glance to Don’s. Depending on the local the Ultras were outcrossed into, different looks would be expected.

It seems very unlikely that we could have another hypo that is an allele with amel, but 5 days ago, I wouldn’t have imagined that the Ultras were an allele with amel either.

A test breeding between the Ultras and High Yellow Hypos would be sweet!

Next year for sure. . .

A test breeding between the Ultras and High Yellow Hypos would be sweet!

Yup. That's on the breeding roster for next year. I'll have 4.2 adults of these yellow hypos then. I have 2.3 adult ultra motleys now so I'll be mixing and matching all over the place.

From the snow. . .

Here are a couple of the hypos from the snow X yellow hypo. Eyes don't seem to be as light as some of the other clutches. I'll put two together soon and photograph them together for comparison.

Rich, I sure love the mechanics of this forum. Very friendly. Kudos.

One more and I'm off to bed. . .

Here is one more shot of some of the litter from the snow X yellow hypo.

Great pics Don.

It usually takes a few readings and studying the thread for me grasp the results of this stuff.

It's like the door is just cracked open and we're just peeking in!

Hee... apparently JY is having consistant results from breeding an ultrahypo to a normal het amel... Since he apparently got a 50-50 ultramel/normal ratio, I suspect his ultra is indeed a pure ultra, and not an ultramel. I gave him an email... hopefully I can entice him to join this thread.

-Kat

Spoke to Sean today . . .

I was wrong. The yellow hypos I got from him are not related to his "T+ albinos". I guess I'll be satisfie for now that they don't appear to be carrying the caramel gene. I'll do more breeding with them next year to make sure they're not yellow because of the caramel gene.

Don

Is there any chance that you may be able to post some photos of Sean's "T+ Albinos"? Perhaps you have some photos or can request some from Sean. I have never seen them and would like to see what they look like. I am sure that many others would like to see them as well.

Opal X Ultra hatchling pics

Here they are

Hey Joe,
Click on this link, and you can see three pictures posted on Sean's website.
http://cornsnakemorphs.com/projects.html

Man life is too busy!!

Hello everyone,

First off I would like to thank Don Soderberg and Joe Pierce for contacting me to inform me of this threads existence. Thanks guys!

Here is the whole story as best I can tell it...

Back in 1999 I was informed by a friend (no longer in this business) that there were these Corn Snakes being sold as Hypos but they are actually T+ Albinos. I was a bit leary of his claims as I thought for sure that if this was true that the breeder would have known it. Anyways... I figured that I should just try to get the animals just to see for myself. In 2000 I received my pair. The male, a strange looking Amelanistic, disappointed me as I was hoping for a pair of "Hypos". However the female was the coolest looking Hypo I had ever seen! Here is the pair as young adults...




So I raised them up... they grew slow and I thought that they were a little weak. One day my friend called me to tell me that he bred his and that they must be in BAD need of an outcross because all of his hatchings died shortly after hatching. That was pretty much they end of his project shortly thereafter he dissolved his collection and left the reptile business. I was a bit concerned about the projects weakness but may animals eventually grew into large adults so I decided to breed them together. What fun! The eggs hatched and all but 2 of the hatchlings died within 2 days of hatching. I was left with ONE Amelanistic female that resembled the male above (but slightly more colorful) and ONE "Hypomelanistic" male that was WAY finer than the mother! Here he is shortly after his first shed...



Ok... thanks for reading this far if you're still with me! So there I was, summer of 2002 with a 1.1 of these "Odd Amels" and a 1.1 of these "Odd Hypos" one of which was INSANE looking. I showed them to Don Soderberg at the ETHS Houston Show in Sept. of 2002 and he loved them. I handed him an unlabeled deli cup containing the crazy looking male and he just stared and then said "I think you've got it! I think THAT is a T+ Albino!"

Key word above... THINK... we still have to find out why it came out the way it did. I have never stated that they animals was INDEED T+ Amelanistic. On with this long boring stuff... I thought maybe if I bred then animal to a long term standard Hypo project it may give me some results. In 2003 I bred the original female "Hypo" to a male Hypo Het. for Amel that came from Brian Barczyk (BHB) some years before. I figured at the time that if this "odd hypo" was a hypo that I should get all Hypos or Amel Hypos (since the original female has been proven to be Het. for Amel). Well come hatch time in July of 2003 this clutch hatched...



The results... Normals, Amelanistics & "Odd Hypos" (just like the original mother NOT like the son above) So I can conclude that the "Odd Hypo" is NOT a standard Hypo variant AND either the "Odd Hypo" is some sort of dominant mutation OR the BHB is het. for this mutation. I spoke at length with Brian about the latter and he stated that he had NEVER seen a Corn like that pop up in his collection anywhere.

So my next idea... we are in Louisiana and anyone that knows about the wild populations of Corns knows that here in southeastern Louisiana our wild Corns are as NORMAL as normal gets! I have several WC Normal females that I use every year to outcross projects that look somewhat weak. Uh Oh... I have NO MALE! I need a male WC to breed to the original female "Odd Hypo" to prove her dominance. So this season... 2004 I intended to find a real deal WC normal male to breed to her. Well... I found one and it was about 3 weeks after breeding was all done So I bred the female "Odd Hypo" to a Normal Stripe Het. Amel and the clutch just hatched about 5 days ago... yup... same outcome as the 2003 clutch... Normals, Amelanistics and "Odd Hypos" all should be 100% Het. Stripe.

Next year 2005 she WILL be bred to a WC Normal male and her INSANE looking son is going to a ton of stuff (man it SUCKED not having a male to start this project off) including WC females. My goal in breeding him to the WC females is to strengthen this project while also perhaps proving out that he is indeed a SUPER form of this Co-Dominant "Odd Hypo or T+?" project.

My conclusions... the original Amel male may be and "Odd Hypo" Amel and the amelanism masks his "hyponess" and when bred with his sister "Odd Hypo" they make some Supers (the outcome should be 25%) That is the only realistic way that I can explain how I got that INSANE looking male from the clutch in 2002. Here are a few more pictures for you guys to look at...
The 2002 lone male hatchling with a standard Hypo...





An eye/body color comparison that I did in early 2003 between the 2002 male and a standard Hypo and a standard Amel...



Ok... are these things Ultra Hypos?!? They very well may be. Especially if Ultras are thought of to be some form of dominance! I love these snakes and I can't wait to see them mixed up with everything but I want to take the time to figure out the genes and separate them from the others so that my results can be pure and consistent. Am I a fool for that?? I hope not... my long term goal with this project is to weed out the Amelanism!!! Imagine that... an Albino gene being a plague not a blessing... ONLY in Corn Snakes!!

Thank you all for your patience in reading this... I am saving it to file on my computer so if I need it again someday I won't have to re-type it all!

COMMENTS.... PLEASE????

Oh... and one more thing... I will get new pics of ALL of these animals soon. Those are all old pics taken with an older digital camera. I will get Celia, our fantastic photographer, to take some new pics for you!

Sean : CSM said:

COMMENTS.... PLEASE????

Click to expand...

As I read through your post, my first impression of your results when you bred your T+ X Amel or Het Amels, was that your results are consistent with the results we are seeing with the Ultra X Amel breedings. The only way to explain your results away is to add hypo genes to both parents or one of them that was not suspected to be carrying a hypo gene in the first place.

It does seems as if your T+ are co-dominant with Amel on the same locus just like the Ultras are or sure seem to be. Is it possible that we have another one, or are the T+ actually compatible with the Ultras? It is hard for me to imagine that we would find three genes that are located on the same locus at approximately the same time, when this would seem to be something that would be very rare. I am still pondering my results with the Snow Motley X Sunkissed breeding. How did I get Hypos in that clutch!?

I haven’t really thought about it much yet, but how are we going to be able to test breed for compatibility of the T+ and Ultras, when they both seem to be alleles with Amel. Either one of them will produce a hypo looking corn if they are bred with Amels or each other if the Amel gene is involved in anyway.

The original pair of T+ that you received actually seem as if one was an Amel and the other was a Hypo. If this is so, it is obvious that the Amel gene was very involved in the production of the T+ that you received or the parents were at least Homo or Het for Amel. The breeder either mistaken an Amel for a T+ or thought it was het for T+.

Just about everything that I read in your post points to co-dominance with Amel just like the Ultras. There even seems to be two looks that you are getting which would be consistent with Ultras and Utlramels.

Sean : CSM said:

I want to take the time to figure out the genes and separate them from the others so that my results can be pure and consistent.

Click to expand...

This is going to be a fun ride, because nothing will be consistent about breeding these guys (Ultras or T+) except that the resulting clutches will be inconstant if they are alleles with amel.

Sure, we can breed Ultra X Ultra and get all Ultras, but if the amel gene is involved look out! We will be able to predict what the outcome of the clutches will be, but it will be odd to try to produce a clutch of Ultramels which are homo for another morph, when the best way to do this will not be to breed Utlramel X Ultramels which are homo for the target trait.

Hmm.... Took me a minute of thinking to figure out what you meant, Joe... But yes... With straight recessive genes, breeding -full morph- to -full morph- yields 100% -full morph-. With a codominant gene, breeding -half morph- to -half morph- yields 25% -morph1-, 25% -morph2-, and 50% -half morph-. The easiest way to breed 100% -half morph- is to take -morph1- and breed it to -morph2-. Getting ultramel lavenders, for example, would be best accomplished by breeding ultra lavender to opal (of course, ultra lav doesn't exist yet, but once it does, that'll yield the best ultramel lav results).

Actually, I think it's a nice change to be able to breed double het to double het (ultramel X ultramel) and NOT get any normals.

-Kat

Thanks Joe...

I agree with you about your conclusions on our project being similar if not the same thing as the Ultras. How far back where the Ultras traced? Who originated them? Any ideas?

I intended to try to remove the Amel gene over time by breeding out to WC Normals. I could get "Odd Hypos" het. for Amel and breed them back to Normals producing "Odd Hypos" that are 50% Poss Het for Amel and breed those back to WC Normals at some point in the next 1000 years I should get an "Odd Hypo" that is NOT het. or homo. Amel. I figured that time didn't really matter... I am intrigued by their inheritance and I would like to understand it better. As for now I guess we will have to keep making Ultra-type crosses with other morphs and fight the amelanism along the way.

I just think it is harder to understand what is going on in the Corn market today because everything seems to be het. for everything else. Just like Ghost corns... sometimes I wonder if they named them for their color or the fact that they will haunt you forever! I can't hatch hardly anything that doesn't contain a Ghost!!

Trying to keep it pure...

Sean : CSM said:

How far back where the Ultras traced? Who originated them? Any ideas?

Click to expand...

Mike Falcon discovered the Ultras from a wild caught individual from the Tampa area. I don’t know exactly when Falcon had the original wild caught, but I will ask. He doesn’t seem to have too many now and has not test bred them to anything. Mike Shivers of Mike’s Motleys (Out of snakes now) got his hands on some and his first breeding was to an Amel Het Butter. Many of the Ultras that we are seeing are traced back to him and that original breeding or to Falcon. Shiver’s very first breeding produced some Hypos, which were most likely the same thing as we are seeing now from Ultra X Amel breedings.

I just read through an email I received from Falcon a while back and he stated that he actually sold almost all of this line to Shivers at sometime after Shivers produced the first Ultra “Amber” Corns. Others have had them like Andy Barr, which is the original connection between Falcon and Shivers. It really would not take too long for a few breeders like these three to produce a few clutches of them and spread them around pretty good. There are enough people who have had them long enough on the thread to do that as well. They really could pop up anywhere now if you ask me. Hopefully, we can get enough information out to people so they will have knowledge of this line and we will be able to keep track of most of them and get a handle on the lineage. At least as well as it is possible with any line. There will always and forever be Space Garbage floating around with lost lineage, but that can not be avoided.