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Heating plastic rubs/ rubs- Cause for concern ??
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:32 PM   #1
Zincubus
Heating plastic rubs/ rubs- Cause for concern ??

Soooooo

I've heard on the grapevine that there may be cause for concern as regards the heating of plastic rub/rubs wether it's UTH or heat /ceramic bulbs!?!?!

The suggestion is ....

Plastic when heated to a certain level will always release VOC which have apparently been linked with Respiratory Tract Infections ( more commonly known as RI ) in snakes and other reptiles ..

Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) are extremely hazardous. The EPA explains VOCs, and the dangers they pose to our health. According to the EPA, VOCs cause eye, nose and throat irritation, frequent headaches, nausea, and can also damage the liver, kidney and central nervous system .


Any thoughts , ideas , concerns or information on this topic ??

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Old 01-24-2019, 07:38 PM   #2
Twolunger
We are bombarded by VOC's every time we purchase new furniture, add wall to wall carpeting, or remodel using plywoods and other bonded wood products. Heated plastics do give off VOC's but the minimum temp for such releases is usually between 50-60C or 122-140F. Nobody I know would come close to heating a snake container to that temp. I don't think we need to be concerned. I have used plastic containers in rack systems for many years and have never had a respiratory problem in my snake collection.
 
Old 01-24-2019, 07:57 PM   #3
MysticExotics
Make sure you're using a thermostat to regulate the temps, so the heat doesn't get high enough to cause any problems, which would be more than just heating the plastic too much.
 
Old 01-25-2019, 04:57 PM   #4
Zincubus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twolunger View Post
We are bombarded by VOC's every time we purchase new furniture, add wall to wall carpeting, or remodel using plywoods and other bonded wood products. Heated plastics do give off VOC's but the minimum temp for such releases is usually between 50-60C or 122-140F. Nobody I know would come close to heating a snake container to that temp. I don't think we need to be concerned. I have used plastic containers in rack systems for many years and have never had a respiratory problem in my snake collection.


The suggestion is that VOCs are released at pretty low temps ( certainly lower than our 90F )
Plus the snakes are trapped in with the fumes as rubs don't have great ventilation.


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Old 01-25-2019, 05:47 PM   #5
Twolunger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zincubus View Post
The suggestion is that VOCs are released at pretty low temps ( certainly lower than our 90F )
Plus the snakes are trapped in with the fumes as rubs don't have great ventilation.


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Who suggested that VOC's are released at low temps? Everything I've read says they are released at higher temps.
 
Old 01-25-2019, 07:08 PM   #6
Zincubus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twolunger View Post
Who suggested that VOC's are released at low temps? Everything I've read says they are released at higher temps.

Generally speaking rubs/tubs are poorly ventilated boxes made from plastic as you rightly point out. Plastic when heated to a certain level will always release VOC.
I am certain myself that it is the long term exposure to these compounds in heated boxes that both reduce the immune system and weaken the respiratory system.
All heat sources, under or over plastic will heat the plastic.

There is no difference between heat from a matt or a ceramic, they both heat the plastic
It is my opinion that these tubs, when heated directly pose too great a risk to be thought of as safe when heated, due to the potential for VOC release in what is an enclosed space.
On tests in the UK with a number of snakes with recurring RTI, continually treated and then coming back, we found that all were being kept in heated tubs. When treated and removed to a conventional viv and in each case the infection/issue did not reoccur. This study, still to be published in full covered common boas, royals and large carpets, of which made up the greatest number of suffering animals overall.
This led to an ongoing study, and a level of publishing into VOCs and the risks of heated plastics.
We know that heated plastics release these compounds when heated to a certain temp. This includes within the range, cyanide. We also know that cyanide, when available in small quantities and after exposure over time, reduces the immune function of an animal and also has a negative impact on the respiratory tract. In this way, i believe that the respiratory tract is damaged alongside a drop in normal immune function and that this can equate to an animal that is both damaged, but also not able to deal adequately with levels of bacteria that would be common to the wild snake. Infection sets in and the animal has little ability to naturally fight it. Typically, the animal is treated, the infection bought under control. Treatment then stops and we start the cycle all over again.
It is my strong belief that these heated plastics do indeed elevate the risk of such VOC releases into a poorly ventilated area and that they do indeed have a negative impact on certain individuals.
Every plastic mix releases VOCs at differing temps, some may remain inert to the average temps that we use, some may not. Some keepers may use higher temps than others and those that use systems in which have small or large heated areas, thus causing heated spots over that area in contact to or in close proximity to the plastic itself could be at higher risk.
Until we know for sure, I for one have removed all plastic/resin bowls and hides from all vivs and do not use heated plastic enclosures.
Tapes and mats, especially printed ones that can be seen with a thermal camera to create superheated spots over areas where the ink is thicker, heated cables that are super heated over a thin area and also overhead lamps, if they heat the plastic itself does in my mind create a level of theoretical risk, no matter the historic use of a product,
It is a risk, until proven otherwise that I am not willing to take any longer as I simply cannot suggest such a thing is safe.
Plastic when heated to a certain level will always release VOC.
Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) are extremely hazardous. The EPA explains VOCs, and the dangers they pose to our health. According to the EPA, VOCs cause eye, nose and throat irritation, frequent headaches, nausea, and can also damage the liver, kidney and central nervous system
Guy works for Arcadia !!



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Old 01-25-2019, 08:12 PM   #7
Twolunger
I don't doubt that heating plastic releases VOC's. I know for a fact that different plastics are manufactured with varying amounts of VOC's. However, those keeping the snakes you mention typically use more heat than those keeping corns or colubrids. In order for a study to be conducted properly you have to take the snakes out of the equation. Heat the plastic containers under laboratory conditions and monitor the released VOC's at each degree of heat. Further, I would test containers made in the U.K., USA, and China, to see if that also skews the results.

All the snake breeders I know have used rack systems with plastic containers for years, with no negative results. However, I never recommend heat lamps or basking areas, and good ventilation is always a plus when keeping any snake.
 

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