Tessera Debate

Originally Posted by mike17l

We can not prove it one way or the others, but those that think it is a hybrid should be providing evidence for it. Maybe I missed it, but I do not think that anyone has done such. There is a lot of conjecture and opinion, but no evidence for hybridization. The burdon of proof falls on the hybrid believers.

Sure...I guess you could argue that the burden of proof falls with the hybrid believers....but the possible evidence is not exactly attainable at this moment, is it?

Beyond breeding the suspected hybrid makers together, there is not much other information out there besides the "word" of the breeders that brought the morph to market and what other information they are willing to release. There seems to be a lot of discussion about the head markings in the normal in the picture...what about the rest of the clutch? I do not remember seeing pictures of FULL clutches from tessera breedings....but I have not exhausted every search term or read every thread...so maybe they are out there?

If there is nothing to hide (and quite possibly there isn't) then why don't the producers of this new morph bring everything they have to the table? Why not close-up pictures of every snake from the all the outcrossed clutches? That may not solve anything, but is sure would pull the cover off the canvas a little.


All we have now is a recipe for problems:

On a public forum, combine a new morph with a $1000 price tag. Sprinkle pictures of morph in new colors. Add a large pinch of mystery. Stir hybrid comments in the mix. Keep posts from the originators of the morph to a minimum. Let fester for months. With a little luck, you should have a mess in no time.

Originally Posted by MohrSnakes

Sure...I guess you could argue that the burden of proof falls with the hybrid believers....but the possible evidence is not exactly attainable at this moment, is it?

All we have now is a recipe for problems:

On a public forum, combine a new morph with a $1000 price tag. Sprinkle pictures of morph in new colors. Add a large pinch of mystery. Stir hybrid comments in the mix. Keep posts from the originators of the morph to a minimum. Let fester for months. With a little luck, you should have a mess in no time.

I agree with Jeff. It would certainly dispel many layers of doubt if whole clutches can be seen. Or even detailed photos of the non-tessera offspring.

On the flip side however, the ones calling hybrid are not really proving much either. What are the markers you keep seeing?

However, I'm sure the originators have explained this all till they are blue in the face, so I really can't blame them.

It has never occurred to me to question why we aren't seeing entire clutches. Is it because we just want to see the Tesseras? Is it because the breeders just want to show off the Tesseras? _Are_ they hiding the normals?? I never thought of it that way...

Like I always say- there's nothing to hide. ATTACHED is a photo that was taken by (and belongs to) Don Soderberg www.cornsnakes.net of a Tessera clutch. There hasn't been that many pictures posted of the clutches because everyone wants to see the tesseras and the normal siblings are just that...normals.

We have brought the normal siblings (along with the Tesseras) to many the big shows- NARBC Arlington,TX, National breeders Expo- Daytona,Fl, etc. SO THAT these people who continue their unfounded hybrid rumors can actually HOLD them in their hand- photograph them- and compare them to other corns.
Too date NO ONE has ever pointed out anything that suggests they are somthing other than pure corns. WE WANT PEOPLE TO SEE THE NORMALS because they are just that: Normal corns...


I work out of town for 2+ weeks at a time (currently I'm working out of town and been here 3 weeks already) HENCE my adult pair of Tesseras have been in the collection of my good friend KJ Lodrigue. I got married back in December and my wife now cares for my animals while I'm out of town. The handful of special animals that I've had out on loan and back in my collection now. The adult Tesseras will be coming back at the end of the season from KJ- we had some really nice high end females on loan from Jeff Mohr that we were crossing the Tessera too for upcoming Tessera morph projects...


Jeff- "If there is nothing to hide (and quite possibly there isn't) then why don't the producers of this new morph bring everything they have to the table?" WE DO! We had them at Daytona when we were right up the isle from you. We had multiple people ask to see tham and happily handed them to 'em for detailed inspection Don brings the normal siblings with him to every show he does also I believe. You'll get your share of the clutches this year from KJ & I. Make sure you tell KJ that you want some of the normals... KJ normally just wholesales the normal siblings as normal corns to petstores I believe... You're a great photographer and hopefully will post lots of pics of the normals here on cornsnakes.com

BTW- The normal siblings have never been hid.... in fact- I believe it was KJ who even posted oncornsnakes.com TELLING everyone that we'd be bringing the normal looking siblings to the show(s)... again, inviting people to come and see them IN PERSON... looking for ANY detail that was maybe missed in a photograph... being able to hold them next to ANY other unrelated corn....


Nanci- we met at the Daytona expo last year... the normals weren't being hid...they were on the table....

Graham- you expect me to remember the normals after seeing the Tesseras in person for the first time??? (I wasn't accusing anyone of hiding them- the thought had never crossed my mind!) I remember seeing one at Don's table- with KJ- but I bet it was the first year, 2008. KJ was frazzled because of his son's early appearance.

Originally Posted by Nanci

Graham- you expect me to remember the normals after seeing the Tesseras in person for the first time??? (I wasn't accusing anyone of hiding them- the thought had never crossed my mind!) I remember seeing one at Don's table- with KJ- but I bet it was the first year, 2008. KJ was frazzled because of his son's early appearance.

I figured thats what you ment.... there was sooo much to see at Daytona. But yes, we DO make a special point to always bring the normals with us to the shows so that people can see them... hold them... inspect them.. etc.

Yep- that was 2008 when KJ had his son... I'm sure he was frazzled... Don had the normal sibs on his table. In 2009 KJ brought some of the 2009 normal siblings with him so we could show people.



I can talk until I'm blue in the face but it doesn't matter- people will think what they want. It's GOOD to question things- especially NEW morphs- thats human nature and everyone expects it... BUT after 3 years of unfounded rumors and NO evidence, it's turning into a broken record thats starting to look like personal attacks. MAYBE these recent Tessera hybrid threads are from "newbies" that weren't in the hobby in 2008 for the Tessera introductions- explaniations- etc. when they were first introduced.

Graham,
Real quick here is an excerpt from KJ's forum, about Tessera's:

Originally Posted by KJUN

1. The black lines were obvious. These are never present on striped corns and are so rare on motleys that they can almost be ignored. The new snakes are more of a “lined” corn than a striped corn!
2. Lateral patterns were heavily checkered in a mosaic-like pattern. The best way to describe the lateral pattern is that is strongly resembles digital camouflage patterns. Normal stripes and motleys have the dorsal pattern absent or modified into a partial, thin, stripe.
3. Ventral scales were usually edged in black (similar to many “het bloodred” cornsnakes but darker and more obvious) and many had partial checkers over much of the ventral surface
4. Overall coloration was that of a NORMAL cornsnake. Striped and motley cornsnakes have a hypo-like appearance. These do NOT. They retain the beautiful coloration of a normal cornsnake while having a striped-motley like pattern with intricate sides.
5. The dorsal stripe was almost always complete from head to tail, and it does not yet seem to turn into a true motley or striped pattern when outcrossed. In most cases, the “stripes” above the spine are, at most, broken in only 1 or 2 small places. ...

What is exciting about the mutation is not just the intricate new pattern or the consistency of the pattern from one individual to the next, but also that the striped-type pattern has a normal coloration without the hypo-like effect of the stripe and motley mutations. In other words, we may be able to make dark colored “striped” patterns: albino Tessera cornsnakes with two WHITE stripes down the back, dark anerythristic Tessera cornsnakes with two black likes that may look like they were drawn with a sharpie, ultramel Tesseras with dual purple-tinged lines on bright orange, hypo-colored, cornsnakes, etc. The potential of this morph is almost unbelievable! It truly is a whole new branch in tree of cornsnake morphs.

So why is the anery's pattern all broken up? By Kjun's definition, this would not seem to be a Tessera then? Is this a partial Tessera? Do you need to breed 2 Tessera's together to get the line all the way down the spine? Wouldn't that be a "Super Form"? Or is this just one of those "throwbacks" you keep mentioning?



Your thoughts?


By the way Nanci ask this first...:

Originally Posted by Nanci

Congratulations Don!! They are simply amazing!

I'd like to hear thoughts from any Tessera "expert" about the difference between
animals with a solid, continuous stripe and those with a broken stripe, or a pattern
such as pictured here, with the central stripe having an Aztec-like appearance.
What causes the difference? Do they all have the same genetics? Is one favorable?
(No, I haven't digested the recent post by Don about Tessera stripes.
I have it printed out, but haven't read it well enough to comprehend it).

Originally Posted by abell82

Graham,
Real quick here is an excerpt from KJ's forum, about Tessera's:




So why is the anery's pattern all broken up? By Kjun's definition, this would not seem to be a Tessera then? Is this a partial Tessera? Do you need to breed 2 Tessera's together to get the line all the way down the spine? Wouldn't that be a "Super Form"? Or is this just one of those "throwbacks" you keep mentioning?



Your thoughts?

abell82- still trying to trash these animals. You should ask KJ that question since it was his post. You should ask Don since those are his pictures/animals...What is the DATE of his post? It's OLD. My personal opinion- from what I have seen- is that when they are outcrossed- SOMETIMES we're seeing semi broken patterns on a few of the animals out of the clutch. Some animals have perfect stripes---some have less than perfect patterns.

No- I still stand behind the fact that there isn't a "super form".... We have gotten perfect stripes from animals outcrossed to unrelated animals. There just seems to be more variation the more they are outcrossed to start new projects.

I BELIEVE what KJ was reffering to was these unusual striped looking animals that were popping up from zig/zag breedings.... Once people saw the price tag on the new morph, every body and their brothers were emailing us pictures of their striped corns claiming to have Tesseras... BUT you breed that semi broken pattern tessera to ANY other corn and you'll get ~1/2 a clutch of Tesseras the FIRST generation. And yes, full (perfect) striped Tesseras will be in the clutch.


BTW, you're comment: "Or is this just one of those "throwbacks" you keep mentioning? " WHEN HAVE I EVER USED THE TERM THROWBACK... please don't put words in my mouth that I never said

Originally Posted by StrangeCargo

BTW, you're comment: "Or is this just one of those "throwbacks" you keep mentioning? " WHEN HAVE I EVER USED THE TERM THROWBACK... please don't put words in my mouth that I never said

You are totally correct. That was Mike using that term. I apologize.