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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

Purist Breeders
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:01 PM   #31
starsevol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe Serpentis View Post
Let me ask this another way so that it is more personal.
Starsevol, do you have any pure corn snake morphs that the entire lineage can be traced back to wild caught and are you willing to share that lineage with your customers?


Is there a degree of uncertanty in some of your lines? Meaning, are there some lines you can not trace back all of the members to wild caught?
If so, what is the degree/% of uncertainty in those lines?
Considering that cornsnakes have been kept in captivity for more than 60 years, and when I first entered the hobby I did not know that a rootbeer is a hybrid mutt, and considering that scientific names themselves have changed several times in that period, I will have to answer no. No, I cannot for sure trace any of my animals back to wild stock. I think that 99% of breeders would be unable do to that. But, if there is any question about anything I breed, I disclose 100% of what I know to my customers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by airenlow View Post
I'm keeping my collection as pure as it was when I entered the hobby. Does that make any sense? All we can do at this point is not make things worse.

It's not that we won't take the time to trace our critters' family trees...it's just impossible to go back to WC animals. My Lava Okeetees would probably be the easiest to trace, but even they are ph Amel Anery Lav Stripe. So, obviously crossed into hobby corns a few times.
Exactly!!! And when hybriders wholesale and dump their babies that don't look "different, artistic, strange, abnormal" enough, or aren't their target all it does it make things so much worse. It is virtually impossible to trace our snakes at this point, the damage is irreversible. The damage can't be undone, and it makes me so angry. All we can do is go on from this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by airenlow View Post
ZERO, but crossing them willy-nilly into every other species probably isn't the answer either...
Nope. It just ruins entire species and makes a mess.
 
Old 02-06-2013, 01:01 PM   #32
Nanci
(That reminds me- I showed Daniel Parker a photo of an Indigo someone had sent me. He asked about the location because he's doing some kind of study- that snake was located right down to its GPS location!)
 
Old 02-06-2013, 01:03 PM   #33
Nanci
Is there a value to a pretty locality Florida cornsnake? Not saying I would, because I have ENOUGH SNAKES, but if I went out in my yard and picked up a pair of normals- would those snakes have locality value? Or is it just the odd ones, like Devils Garden and Hunt Club and Alabama and Khaki Corn?
 
Old 02-06-2013, 01:14 PM   #34
DMong
Also, I did notice your nice new avatar Carpe.


One very important thing to remember about it though. See, when a mind is TOO open and far too liberal about everything, it can then become very destructive and detrimental. Today's society is always proving this. And I see today's herpetocultural hobby as being no different at all.

There is really nothing else I could add here.............


~Doug
 
Old 02-06-2013, 01:44 PM   #35
Carpe Serpentis
Cool If you open your mind too much your brains will fall out

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMong View Post
Also, I did notice your nice new avatar Carpe.


One very important thing to remember about it though. See, when a mind is TOO open and far too liberal about everything, it can then become very destructive and detrimental. Today's society is always proving this. And I see today's herpetocultural hobby as being no different at all.

There is really nothing else I could add here.............


~Doug
Tim Minchin-If you open your mind too much your brains will fall out

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg

This ones for you Dmong. I couldn't agree more with the sentiments in this song. Trust me, I'm open to new facts and I'll listen to beliefs and opinions, but in the end I need facts. And the plain simple facts are that if you know the lineage of your snakes all the way back to the wild without exception and demand the same of others you deal with hybrids can't sneak into your collection. Thus, those that hybridize do no damage to the real purists. Those that settle for less will almost always get less.
 
Old 02-06-2013, 01:58 PM   #36
starsevol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe Serpentis View Post
Tim Minchin-If you open your mind too much your brains will fall out

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg

This ones for you Dmong. I couldn't agree more with the sentiments in this song. Trust me, I'm open to new facts and I'll listen to beliefs and opinions, but in the end I need facts. And the plain simple facts are that if you know the lineage of your snakes all the way back to the wild without exception and demand the same of others you deal with hybrids can't sneak into your collection. Thus, those that hybridize do no damage to the real purists. Those that settle for less will almost always get less.
On the other hand, it is IMPOSSIBLE to verify the lineage of most of the corns in the hobby today. You are better off to destroy everything in everyone's collection and start over.
And I do think that hybridizer's did a ton of damage to this hobby.
When someone goes to buy a cornsnake, they should be getting a cornsnake. Not something other than a cornsnake.

Hybridizers took something that was pure and real and ruined it so that nothing is as it seems anymore.

Just like when you go to buy a diamond ring, you don't want a cz, you want a diamond.
 
Old 02-06-2013, 02:13 PM   #37
Carpe Serpentis
Quote:
Originally Posted by starsevol View Post
On the other hand, it is IMPOSSIBLE to verify the lineage of most of the corns in the hobby today. You are better off to destroy everything in everyone's collection and start over.
And I do think that hybridizer's did a ton of damage to this hobby.
When someone goes to buy a cornsnake, they should be getting a cornsnake. Not something other than a cornsnake.

Hybridizers took something that was pure and real and ruined it so that nothing is as it seems anymore.

Just like when you go to buy a diamond ring, you don't want a cz, you want a diamond.
Hybridizers don't ruin anything as they don't force you not to know the lineage of the snakes you work with. When you accept snakes into your breeding pool with unknown lineage then you are agreeing to work with possible hybrids or suspect snakes. As a breeder, no one is tying your hands forcing you not to ask for a lineage of the snakes your working with. You have to take responsibility for the snakes you choose to work with and if you choose to work with suspect or otherwise unknown variables that will always be your choice. The hybridizer doesn't make these choices for you.

If you go to buy a diamond you have every right to ask for proof that it is a diamond and not a cubic zirconium. If you don't ask for proof. That is on you just as it is with the breeder who doesn't know the lineage of his corn snakes. You can try to place the blame on the hybridizer, but in the end a hybridizer is a hybridizer and a purist is a purist. The two are separate from each other and each serves their own goals. Don't expect a hybridizer to do your job of keeping track of the purity of the corn snakes in your breeding pool, but instead, take responsibility for the corn snakes lineages that you choose to work with.
 
Old 02-06-2013, 02:17 PM   #38
DMong
Quote:
Originally Posted by starsevol View Post
On the other hand, it is IMPOSSIBLE to verify the lineage of most of the corns in the hobby today. You are better off to destroy everything in everyone's collection and start over.
And I do think that hybridizer's did a ton of damage to this hobby.
When someone goes to buy a cornsnake, they should be getting a cornsnake. Not something other than a cornsnake.

Hybridizers took something that was pure and real and ruined it so that nothing is as it seems anymore.

Just like when you go to buy a diamond ring, you don't want a cz, you want a diamond.

I couldn't have said it ANY better!........except they can never be taken back and destroyed. They will be doing the destroying to the general hobby forever. It's just too bad there were and are so many that contributed to it.

As mentioned before, all anyone can do is carry on and think about what they do that will affect other things later. Again, I am not talking only cornsnakes here AT ALL!


~Doug
 
Old 02-06-2013, 02:25 PM   #39
AliCat37
I guess I don't see the big picture. No one is breeding cornsnakes to release back into the wild. If it's a cool looking snake, and people like it, then why get upset about it? I just don't get it
 
Old 02-06-2013, 02:25 PM   #40
starsevol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe Serpentis View Post
Hybridizers don't ruin anything as they don't force you not to know the lineage of the snakes you work with. When you accept snakes into your breeding pool with unknown lineage then you are agreeing to work with possible hybrids or suspect snakes. As a breeder, no one is tying your hands forcing you not to ask for a lineage of the snakes your working with. You have to take responsibility for the snakes you choose to work with and if you choose to work with suspect or otherwise unknown variables that will always be your choice. The hybridizer doesn't make these choices for you.

If you go to buy a diamond you have every right to ask for proof that it is a diamond and not a cubic zirconium. If you don't ask for proof. That is on you just as it is with the breeder who doesn't know the lineage of his corn snakes. You can try to place the blame on the hybridizer, but in the end a hybridizer is a hybridizer and a purist is a purist. The two are separate from each other and each serves their own goals. Don't expect a hybridizer to do your job of keeping track of the purity of the corn snakes in your breeding pool, but instead, take responsibility for the corn snakes lineages that you choose to work with.
You aren't getting it, until recently NO ONE, I REPEAT NO ONE kept extensive records of such things. All my snakes are registered with the ACR, I signed onto it the first year it existed. And others actually laughed at me, the idea of a pedigree for a snake!!
So what do you do with the generations of snakes that came from ancestors in captivity since the 60s?

When someone posts some abberrant hybrid monstosity that is all bright colors but looks like neither parent, many on here swoon. I look at it and wonder how many pure looking offspring were dumped to create it.

I don't like things where they are now. But it doesn't have to get worse.
 

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