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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

PILE-O LAVAS & LAVA CINDERS !!
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Old 06-17-2014, 08:25 PM   #41
DuxorW
Quote:
The cinder offspring of het cinder x het cinder should have a roughly equal sex ratio.
MY BAD! The cinder offspring should be skewed toward male or female, depending on if the dame had the cinder mutation on her Z or W chromosome, respectively.
 
Old 06-17-2014, 08:38 PM   #42
DuxorW
It looks like you have done some of these crosses, since any non cinder gene can simply be ignored in the cross because of mendel's law of independent assortment.

For example, your clutch#2 this year. Since you have two male peppermints listed for sale, I am guessing the het cinder dame has the cinder mutation on her Z chromosome. I'm guessing you probably did not get any female peppermints from that pairing?

Of course, we will need to pool lots of numbers, and for het cinder females, we can only pool results from that same dame, since a different female may have the cinder mutation on a different sex chromosome.
 
Old 06-17-2014, 08:40 PM   #43
kc261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Smith View Post
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: Cinder
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: Cinder
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder
If I understood correctly, you've left out 2 possibilities. Or really, lumped some things together that are not the same. I believe the list should look like this:

SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on Z chromosome
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on W chromosome
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: Cinder
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: Cinder
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on Z chromosome
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on W chromosome

And the outcomes should be as follows:
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on Z chromosome
- 50% male cinders, 50% female het cinders on Z chromosome, so will produce only male cinders. No female visuals. No male hets.
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on W chromosome
- 50% female cinders, 50% male het cinders (on Z chromosome of course since males are both Z anyway). No male visuals. No female hets.
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: Cinder
- a normal 50/50 clutch with a normal 50/50 sex ratio in both cinders and het cinders, but all female het cinders have cinder on W chromosome, so will produce only female cinders
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: Cinder
- a normal 100% cinder clutch with a normal 50/50 sex ratio
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on Z chromosome
- 25% male cinders, 25% male het cinders, 25% female het cinders on Z chromosome, so will produce only male cinders, 25% female normals (don't even carry the het). No visual female cinders, and no male normals (all males carry the het)
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on W chromosome
- 25% female cinders, 25% female het cinders on W chromosome, 25% male het cinders, 25% male normals (don't carry the het). No visual male cinders, and no female normals (all females carry the het).

I HOPE I got that right. It was kinda confusing considering factors I'm not used to considering.
 
Old 06-17-2014, 08:44 PM   #44
DuxorW
Yes kc261, but we cannot know whether the female has the mutation on her Z or W chromosome without mating her to a cinder male, and in a way some of this would presuppose what we are trying to prove!

Yes your predictions are correct, however there will be minor deviations because of crossover events.
 
Old 06-17-2014, 08:49 PM   #45
DuxorW
Quote:
Yes kc261, but we cannot know whether the female has the mutation on her Z or W chromosome without mating her to a cinder male
Unless of course her mother is homozygous cinder, in which case we know she must have it on her W chromosome if she is a het.
 
Old 06-17-2014, 08:58 PM   #46
DuxorW
Or if her dad is homozygous cinder, she must have it on her Z chromosome. Bah, I am confusing myself and I should really know better!
 
Old 06-17-2014, 09:01 PM   #47
Walter Smith
Quote:
Originally Posted by kc261 View Post
If I understood correctly, you've left out 2 possibilities. Or really, lumped some things together that are not the same. I believe the list should look like this:

SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on Z chromosome
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on W chromosome
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: Cinder
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: Cinder
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on Z chromosome
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on W chromosome

And the outcomes should be as follows:
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on Z chromosome
- 50% male cinders, 50% female het cinders on Z chromosome, so will produce only male cinders. No female visuals. No male hets.
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on W chromosome
- 50% female cinders, 50% male het cinders (on Z chromosome of course since males are both Z anyway). No male visuals. No female hets.
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: Cinder
- a normal 50/50 clutch with a normal 50/50 sex ratio in both cinders and het cinders, but all female het cinders have cinder on W chromosome, so will produce only female cinders
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: Cinder
- a normal 100% cinder clutch with a normal 50/50 sex ratio
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on Z chromosome
- 25% male cinders, 25% male het cinders, 25% female het cinders on Z chromosome, so will produce only male cinders, 25% female normals (don't even carry the het). No visual female cinders, and no male normals (all males carry the het)
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on W chromosome
- 25% female cinders, 25% female het cinders on W chromosome, 25% male het cinders, 25% male normals (don't carry the het). No visual male cinders, and no female normals (all females carry the het).

I HOPE I got that right. It was kinda confusing considering factors I'm not used to considering.
WHEW !!!
To be honest, I don't have the depth of knowledge on genetics as far as chromosomes in this manor, but what I gather is the best breeding that could be done to get a equal sex ratio of HOMO Cinders is:

SIRE: Cinder X DAME: Cinder...............correct??

Walter
BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Old 06-17-2014, 09:02 PM   #48
DuxorW
Or sire het cinder x dame cinder. As long as the female is homozygous, there will be an equal sex ration of cinder males and females.
 
Old 06-17-2014, 09:04 PM   #49
kc261
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuxorW View Post
Yes kc261, but we cannot know whether the female has the mutation on her Z or W chromosome without mating her to a cinder male, and in a way some of this would presuppose what we are trying to prove!

Yes your predictions are correct, however there will be minor deviations because of crossover events.
Well. We can't let the scientific method get in our way, can we?

Ah well. It is at least good to know I understand what you are saying.

I have realized it doesn't explain the BP banana thing though. Unless there is another piece I'm not understanding. In banana BPs, males are supposedly either "male makers" or "female makers". But obviously the male BP would have to have the banana gene on one of his Z chromosomes, cuz he doesn't even have a W chromosome. So how do you get a "female maker" male? That implies that somehow he forces the female he is mated with to produce a female egg when he produces a banana sperm. Banana is a codom morph, so at least you can see the hets, but that doesn't seem to help explain it. Unless... banana is recessive the way color blindness is recessive. You don't have to have 2 copies of it... you just have to not have a copy of normal. Argh. Not sure that works either.
 
Old 06-17-2014, 09:06 PM   #50
DuxorW
Yes I have some ideas about a better explanation for the banana morph and if I clarify it I will post in the miscellaneous forum.
 

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