Scale less Corns anyone?

As a fairly large breeder of corns i have to admit that i find the pictures startlingly attractive. The health and care issues are a definite point of discussion but I do happen to have a little bit of firsthand knowledge about a couple of the points that have been brought up

1. Dr Bechtel was working with scaleless texas rats decades ago. as to their potential longevity, there are specimens in excess of 15 years of age right here in Florida. I have seen and handled these animals several times. The animals have always been outwardly healthy. Decreased lifespan does not seem to be an issue.

2. Like any mutation that changes the norm for an animal, there are undoubtedly side issues that can be a concern However, there have been more than one subadult with this mutation found in the wild. a few yellow rats have been collected from the south Okeechobee region. Those animals did manage to survive and grow for extended periods. It would lead one to believe that the animals do adapt to some extent. From a camouflage point, it is a far less serious negative than amelanism

While i agree that I am not really planning on running out and sinking a fortune into them, I do think that as captive bred animals they show a large amount of potential. I have dealt, over the years, with a lot of breeders/ keepers who were horrified that anyone would breed a recessive color mutation at all. There stance was that it should be the normal wild color morph only with no room for aesthetic alteration. The topic under discussion is the exact same premise, just taken one more rung up the ladder.

It all boils down to personal preference and choice though. like em...buy em. Don't like em...don't buy em.

So whats next guys? Specifically breeding for eyeless corns (if it was a recessive trait?).

You know, because theres a handful of adult specimens out there that are perfectly healthy.

Originally Posted by Suncoast Herps

It all boils down to personal preference and choice though. like em...buy em. Don't like em...don't buy em.

In a case like this, I think there is far more that needs to be considered... like, 3 generations down the line. Say someone breeds a het for scaleless to a non-het, making poss het babies. This breeder sells them as poss het, and honestly represents them. Another person buys a pair, one with the het and one without. They breed the snakes, producing no scaleless snakes, so they assume the parents don't have the het - problem is, one does. Which means half the babies do. These babies get sold, produce other babies, half of which have this mutation, and eventually, someone like me breeds them together, hoping for some very cool PLANNED morphs, only to find that this abomination has been propagated and is now in my own collection. I would cull every one of the babies, and permanently retire the adults. How fair is that?

I think there is a lot more to consider than just "if you don't like, don't buy." I'm with Tula on this one... next it will be eyeless corns, then tailless corns, and who knows what else. The ability of the animal to survive under captive conditions does not, IMHO, mean that it is not suffering.

Originally Posted by Tula_Montage

So whats next guys? Specifically breeding for eyeless corns (if it was a recessive trait?).

You know, because theres a handful of adult specimens out there that are perfectly healthy.

I think you have to look at that differently - Scaleless and Eyeless are two different things. Corns without eyes would most likely not be able to function normally, they wouldn't be able to hunt properly. Whats stopping a corn without scales from acting like a corn?

It's the same difference. A corn with no scales in the wild would be just as vuerable as a corn with no eyes in the wild. Afterall, this is apparently down to their ability to thrive in captivity.

Originally Posted by Tula_Montage

It's the same difference. A corn with no scales in the wild would be just as vuerable as a corn with no eyes in the wild. Afterall, this is apparently down to their ability to thrive in captivity.

But as others have already pointed out - amels are not great at surviving in the wild as well simply because of their color, and we don't have any problem breeding those.

Originally Posted by Invictus

In a case like this, I think there is far more that needs to be considered... like, 3 generations down the line. Say someone breeds a het for scaleless to a non-het, making poss het babies. This breeder sells them as poss het, and honestly represents them. Another person buys a pair, one with the het and one without. They breed the snakes, producing no scaleless snakes, so they assume the parents don't have the het - problem is, one does. Which means half the babies do. These babies get sold, produce other babies, half of which have this mutation, and eventually, someone like me breeds them together, hoping for some very cool PLANNED morphs, only to find that this abomination has been propagated and is now in my own collection. I would cull every one of the babies, and permanently retire the adults. How fair is that?

I think there is a lot more to consider than just "if you don't like, don't buy." I'm with Tula on this one... next it will be eyeless corns, then tailless corns, and who knows what else. The ability of the animal to survive under captive conditions does not, IMHO, mean that it is not suffering.

Again, as I stated before, the scenario that you posted could apply equally to any recessive trait. There are a lot of purists out there who would do the exact same thing if an Amel popped up in a line. It is simply a matter of degree.

By using words such as "abomination" you have made it clear that you are 100% firm in your stance. I get that and i believe everyone else does to. It is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But this thread has aptly illustrated that a large number do not share your view.

I am not espousing that the captive corn population needs to immediately be swapped out for scaleless animals. I am simply stating that, based on the info we have on this particular trait, it does not seem to have any catastrophic negative consequences and i believe it has a place in captive propogation.

Originally Posted by Tula_Montage

It's the same difference. A corn with no scales in the wild would be just as vuerable as a corn with no eyes in the wild. Afterall, this is apparently down to their ability to thrive in captivity.

While I definitely disagree with this analogy, i am curious on what your basis for making it was?

Originally Posted by Suncoast Herps

While I definitely disagree with this analogy, i am curious on what your basis for making it was?

I mention the point about captivity because this what the issue is about, Breeding and keeping in captivity...

Originally Posted by Tula_Montage

I mention the point about captivity because this what the issue is about, Breeding and keeping in captivity...

Sorry I wasn't clear. My question related to you considering a lack of eyes and a lack of scales to be equivalently debilitating traits. I would be more inclined to class scaleless with amelanism as a trait which would threaten a snakes existance in the wiild.