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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

Scale less Corns anyone?
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Old 02-26-2008, 11:32 AM   #81
Roy Munson
Quote:
Originally Posted by BT41042 View Post
I truely wish I would have never posted this project on this board...
Why? Are you super-sensitive? I appreciate your original post, and most of the discussion has been interesting. I found this thread to be thought-provoking. It gets a thumbs-up from me, BT.
 
Old 02-26-2008, 11:36 AM   #82
BT41042
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy Munson View Post
Why? Are you super-sensitive? I appreciate your original post, and most of the discussion has been interesting. I found this thread to be thought-provoking. It gets a thumbs-up from me, BT.
Super - sensitive - Nope...I'm a big boy...Just not worth the hassle...Not worth trying to convince people it's not a hybrid...Not worth getting lenched on a forum for a project that I happen to like...It's all good man -
BT
 
Old 02-26-2008, 11:45 AM   #83
Tula_Montage
I absolutly disagree in breeding "defective" animals on purpose. Because that is what this is... a scale defect in which they are removed completely.

That aside, I can see why is of interest and purposley being bred however this snake would ONLY thrive in captivity. How the heck is a snake supposed to climp vertically if it cannot grip on with it's belly scales? A scaleless corn doesn't have to worry about rough terrain, UV rays and "sunburn", hunting live rodents etc in captivity. It's shoved in a box and has nothing to worry about. The only thing I can think of is issues with heat. I would be extremely scared to provide a scaleless animal with a heat lamp...

There are scaleless beardies (purposeley bred) which often do not thrive in captivity due to them needing high amounts of UV and temperatures over 100F. They simply burn...

A lavenderbloodredstripeyglitterbumfluff corn can survive in the wild. Perhaps it doesn't have the same camouflage ability as a locality okeetee but it's still a "normal" corn snake in every other aspect.
 
Old 02-26-2008, 12:03 PM   #84
mikehayn
[quote= It gets a thumbs-up from me, BT.[/QUOTE]

I agree with Dean, great post man!! Whether people like the snake or not, it's got people thinking and expressing their opinions, look how many pages the thread has grown in just one day, must be close to a record!!

Just to add my 2 cents worth, I think it's hypocritical of ANY breeder, whether breeding for fun or for money to say it's cruel. Humans are, generally, by nature cruel, keeping any animal in captivity is cruel and there is NO difference between keeping a scale-less snake and one with scales as long as the snake is healthy, cared for and comfortable. If any one feels that strongly about it, why they keeping "pet' snakes, let them go!!

I think it's beautiful.
 
Old 02-26-2008, 12:08 PM   #85
Roy Munson
Quote:
Originally Posted by BT41042 View Post
Super - sensitive - Nope...I'm a big boy...Just not worth the hassle...Not worth trying to convince people it's not a hybrid...Not worth getting lenched on a forum for a project that I happen to like...It's all good man -
BT
I think I actually changed my mind over the course of the thread. I think that's a cool thing. The hybrid speculation never ends, man. It's not limited to new stuff either. I sold a normal, anery, ghost and snow to someone, they posted pics, and we had some joker suspecting that they were hybrids (based on zip, nada, nothing). There was a recent discussion where the value of a certain project was debated, when really, it all came down to subjectivity. That's just the way it goes in an open discussion forum. Don't worry about it, and don't let it discourage you.
 
Old 02-26-2008, 12:10 PM   #86
Invictus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tula_Montage View Post
A lavenderbloodredstripeyglitterbumfluff corn can survive in the wild. Perhaps it doesn't have the same camouflage ability as a locality okeetee but it's still a "normal" corn snake in every other aspect.
Exactly my point - this is not about a new color morph. This is a deleterious gene that will even have its problems in captivity (heat absorption, moisture retention, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BT41042
Keep on reading your books - Judging what you have not seen, held, kept or experienced for yourself...I know - I know - I'm trash for wanting a unnatural freak of a mutant snake...Let the lenching continue...
I see, now we're going down the "well you haven't experienced it for yourself, so you have no opinion" road. This is not necessary man. If you feel comfortable with this mutation, knock yourself out dude - you're danm right that I'll never buy into it though. And I don't need to experience it for myself, there is already well documented proof (scaleless pines, texas rats, etc) that this gene is deleterious even in captivity. But, just because I (and about half the people here) think this is an absolute abomination that needs to be culled, not propagated, doesn't mean you won't have success with it. We all have our own perspectives, and so does the market. I just don't think this will be the "next big thing".
 
Old 02-26-2008, 12:16 PM   #87
El Jefe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tula_Montage View Post
IA lavenderbloodredstripeyglitterbumfluff corn can survive in the wild. Perhaps it doesn't have the same camouflage ability as a locality okeetee but it's still a "normal" corn snake in every other aspect.
Yeah, but in both animals you are breeding for a defect from its normal condition. One is breeding the normal color out and the other is breeding scales out. Both are defects and both will probably have their limitations in the natural environment...but last I checked not too many of us are breeding our snakes to let them go into the wild someday....

That being said, if the mutant condition thrives in captivity in a healthy way, I don't see the argument against it. If the animal is not in pain or has some other detrimental condition then I think it is fine keeping them.
 
Old 02-26-2008, 12:23 PM   #88
toyah
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikehayn View Post
Just to add my 2 cents worth, I think it's hypocritical of ANY breeder, whether breeding for fun or for money to say it's cruel. Humans are, generally, by nature cruel, keeping any animal in captivity is cruel and there is NO difference between keeping a scale-less snake and one with scales as long as the snake is healthy, cared for and comfortable. If any one feels that strongly about it, why they keeping "pet' snakes, let them go!!
That's a lot of strong feeling in that paragraph. I disagree that keeping animals in captivity is, by its very act, cruel - but that is a bigger discussion than one on naked corn snakes, so I'll leave that one.

I agree that as long as the snake is healthy and comfortable that is the main thing - but is it the only thing? If the lifespan of the animal is shortened, is that unacceptable? How much shortening of lifespan would be acceptable? Are they capable of breeding? Does it stop natural expression of behaviour? If so, does it disable it "too" much to be ethical? Elle mentioned the snake probably can't climb vertically, but to be honest most large scale corn snake facilities I've seen don't really allow for vertical climbing in corns, instead using quite shallow tubs - so is that really a disability, or does the lack of ability not really matter in an environment where the ability would not be used?

We all love defective animals - but we all have our own limits on what we view as acceptable. I like snakes with defective melanin production, and I consider them acceptable and fine to own. A dog with the same mutated, defective gene I would consider unacceptable as the same defect produces an animal I consider unethical to produce. Hairless dogs sometimes have dental defects, but properly bred it doesn't affect quality of life, and so I personally consider well bred Chinese Crested dogs to be desirable, while at the same time I would protest the breeding of a hairless rat that could not lactate for its own offspring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikehayn View Post
I think it's beautiful.
Me too. But its beauty has to be a starting point on making up ours minds, rather than a decision maker.
 
Old 02-26-2008, 12:38 PM   #89
Invictus
Quote:
Originally Posted by toyah View Post
I agree that as long as the snake is healthy and comfortable that is the main thing - but is it the only thing?
Moreover, how do we know that it is comfortable? I can't imagine it would be. Has anyone considered the potential ramifications of the lack of an ocular scale for an animal that spends its life on its belly? I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine that being comfortable for an animal that can't blink.
 
Old 02-26-2008, 01:04 PM   #90
Tula_Montage
Question for the breeder, do these scaleless corns have any trouble climbing? I bet they would...
 

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