Palmetto question

At this rate ultras might as well be considered corns. There's a lot of speculation that other genes may have also originated with intergrades in the wild. I used to avoid ultra because I was adamantly anti-hybrid, but at this point? I kinda want a few...

^Plus, any descendant of an ultra or ultramel would technically be a hybrid and you would never know it (if they didn't inherit an ultra allele). So might as well nab you an ultramel

I would sure like to have one...{ sighs }

My Ultramel was sold as a pure corn, not a hybrid and when she was young, she would do a King Cobra imitation, but she's the sweetest thing now. I love her to pieces. Guess, I'm glad I didn't find what I wanted to breed to her.

Also, my youngest is a Bloodred and she has always been a great eater and still does a rattlesnake imitation during feeding time and I don't find her colour dark and dull at all

Hi All! My Name is Beau, I have been a member for a short while and don't often post, but I lurk quite a bit. lol

I was happy to see this thread, because it hits on three topics I am fascinated with: Palmettos, Hybrids, and Calico Beauty Snakes!

As a senior in Biology at the College of Charleston, it was the awesome variation of morphs that originally pulled me into the Corn Snake Addiction, although, in the short time I have been keeping snakes I have now expanded to other species besides just Red Rat (aka "Corn") Snakes.

In fact, I just put a down payment on a Calico Beauty Snake! :-D

Reguarding the Palmetto, I *personally* believe that it is a hybrid. Having said that, I think that it is of the same genre of hybrid as the new scaleless corns. That is to say, that it carries the recessive gene for the Palmetto Pattern, but has been back bred to corns for long enough that it is pretty much all corn.

Again, this is just my opinion! However, it is also one of the reasons I ordered my Calico Beauty Snake. A few years ago, I was involved with the CDC through a study program at the college which involved producing DNA gels of misquitos carrying the West Nile Virus; should the opportunity arise for me to use the equipment again, I will post a request here and in other forums asking for DNA swabs from Palmetto corn snakes. I would like to genuinely settle this question once and for all.

~Beau

Obviously from reading the links, this is still in debate by many. As I said, my Ultramel, is awesome temperament wise. Wouldn't trade her for anything.

For your reading pleasure
(Not the full article. Just what is pertinent to this thread)


Friday, July 22 2011


Revolutionary New Cornsnake Mutation - PALMETTO

By DonSoderberg
Fri, July 22 2011 at 10:33



This is my first KS blog, so forgive any potentially awkward composition.


Scale counts are more appropriate for the Cornsnake Pantherophis guttatus species than the only other suspect species found in South Carolina, the Black Rat Snake Pantherophis obsoletus - though these two cousin species have some overlapping scale count zones. Head shape is not like that of the Black Rat - in that the jaw/neck intersection is not pronounced. Demeanor of the hatchlings - as well as that of the only known adult - is remarkably and utterly mild, in so much as not one single specimen has ever struck or otherwise shown any human intolerance (the opposite predominant temperament of the Black Rat species). Other features that distinguish the Palmetto as being a pure corn snake are semen color and a cross-cut body profile more cornsnake-like, regarding its more rounded ventral keel. There is no doubt in my mind that the demonstrated characteristics of all the Palmettos reproduced (and of the only adult specimen) point to this mutation being purely cornsnake. The odds of a NEW leucistic rat snake variation consistently exhibiting so many color anomalies existing in the wild OR in captivity is rare enough, but the notion that such a heretofore unseen and unique mutant variation suddenly entering herpetoculture in the form of a cornsnake, surely decreases the likelihood of this being an inter-species hybrid between Black Rat Snake and Cornsnake. The seven people that I know have handled the adult all instantly discounted the possibility of it being a rat snake. I only emphasize these observations because hybridization between species (and genera) in our hobby is so prevalent lately, it is inherent for someone to suspect that ANY new snake phenotype that is dramatically atypical for one species - could be a man-made, inter-species (or inter-genera) hybrid.

Originally Posted by BeauBoi

A few years ago, I was involved with the CDC through a study program at the college which involved producing DNA gels of misquitos carrying the West Nile Virus; should the opportunity arise for me to use the equipment again, I will post a request here and in other forums asking for DNA swabs from Palmetto corn snakes. I would like to genuinely settle this question once and for all.

I think the origin of ultra is more worth looking into. I tend to trust Don's opinion, particularly when he's put so much effort into the palmetto project. I mean he had $12,000 riding on it just being reproducible, so you know he did ever bit of homework he could.

What would you even look for with a palmetto corn? A restriction fragment length polymorphism? It wouldn't be cheap or trivial to prove any polymorphism you saw was from hybridization. Maybe if the palmetto locus was actually cloned (a time consuming and expensive task), the sequence of the coding region or the introns of the palmetto allele (the sequence of introns changes more rapidly during evolution, so two related species would generally show more sequence divergence in the introns than the exons) of the palmetto allele could be informative as to whether it was derived from corn snakes. The morph is new and the hets look like regular corns, I suspect it is no more of a hybrid than a wild corn snake is.

As far as the ultra mutation, the group that identified the locus responsible for amelanism in corns are sequencing the ultra allele. Depending on how thorough their analysis is, they should be able to demonstrate if it arose from a mutation in the wt corn snake allele or if it is not derived from corns.

I am super excited to see the results, especially since I am wavering between a future pairing of my cayenne to a pewter het amel or an ultramel pewter.