"AKC" type registry for reptiles?

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Hey, this is all just theoretical mumbo jumbo anyway. No one in their right mind is going to sue over a $100 corn snake. You will catch some grief over it, for sure, but heck if you want to do it, well go ahead and just do it. Life's too short to not do what you want to do while living it.

Ya, whatever you do, or don't do, someone will be mad about it. I think Douglas Adams put it best when he said something to this effect:

"In the beginning, the universe was created. This made a lot of people unhappy and was generally considered a bad idea."

BTW thanks for the info on the 1996 CDA. (I remember there was tons of controversy when it was being debated back then, too!) I'll do some reading on it.

Originally Posted by Buschjs

I agree, it needs to be done and I hope it is successful. How would this actually be implemented, would each animal come with a certificate indicating their ancestry?

Greetings! First let me thank Kathy Love and all of you for your thoughtful feedback and support. I am Terri Sommella, of Fire and Ice Dragons and the administrator of the Color Morph & Pattern Registry. When we developed the idea for this registry, we wanted to develop a shell that was 70% complete. By doing so, each group can use the sections and customize each area according to the needs of say, corn snake breeders.

Right now, we are accepting Baseline registrations which we know already will not be complete or perfect but we will refine the lines as we go.

To address the specific question though, here is a quick overview of the Registration process: Let's say you register a snake online. In 4-6 weeks you get a Registration Certificate in the mail with your snake's unique registration number, breeders name, sex if known and hatch date. The Certificate also contains parents' registration numbers if known.

Assume that you also register the mate to snake 1. When the snake lays and the eggs hatch, you register the clutch. Then you are mailed paperwork, one paper for each hatchling snake. Now, you can offer registered corn snakes to potential buyers, for what we hope will be a substantially higher price.

At the time of sale, you sign the papers, the new owner signs and completes the paperwork and submits the registration application. Registration papers are then mailed to the new owner and so forth.

As the database builds, registered breeders can access limited generational information and eventually, multigenerational pedigrees (for a nominal fee) to identify lineage, new blood, specific characteristics, local breeders, etc.

I hope this clarifies the process. Good question!

Originally Posted by kathylove

If you look at how the breed associations work for horses, dogs, etc, you can see how they worked some of those same problems out. They all register babies, and you usually can't see exactly what the quality of a baby is in most species. But once several generations have been registered, you can get an idea of the quality of the bloodlines after many progeny have arisen from that line. Breeders already have a feel for that in their bloodlines, if they are good, longterm breeders who know their lines well. But no matter how good the bloodline, you will get some poor examples from that line. They will still be registered, but probably won't win any prizes at shows! If it goes the way of dog shows, then eventually you will see ancestors with "champion" next to their names, and the more champions in the line, the greater chances that a high percentage of that line will be champion quality. Not a for sure thing, of course, just increases the chances. There would also be disqualifications for shows, I would imagine, like kinked backs. So yes, the kinked baby might be registered because nobody is going to come to your home and check your clutch. But that baby would be disqualified from competing in a show.

The way the founding stock worked in some new horse breeds (way back in the '60s and '70s when I was into horses) was that the stud book was open for a certain amount of time. If the horse had the right look (say a paint horse that conformed to the colors, pattern, and other specifications), then it coud be registered and so could its offspring. They might also allow other established breeds to register (like quarter horses, for example) to get the right body type. But eventually the stud book would be "closed" and no new founder stock could be registered. From that time onward, only progeny of registered animals could be registered themselves. I don't know if that is exactly how this would work, but it has worked with other animals. It would take a lot of time before the kinks are worked out, and enough generations were registered to make it mean anything. But a journey of a thousand miles...(you know the rest!)

Yes, Kathy, you've got it exactly right. After interviewing many folks within the other registries, we decided not to reinvent the wheel. Instead we adopted what we could gleen as appropriate for reptiles knowing it would be a work in progress. The key is not to overthink it. An AKC judge once told me, "You have to start somewhere and move foreward."

Originally Posted by Serpwidgets

I agree 1000% on this point. I think if it's going to succeed in the corn world, it will have to be done by someone who is willing to put in the effort, from their own desire to see it get done, in order to get it rolling. If it happens to pay itself back later, that would be a nice bonus.

The other problem I have with the current design is that they want $500 to recognize any new morph. IMO that is outrageous. Especially with genetic color/pattern variations. It either is or is not, regardless of whether or not they "recognize" it. Seems to me like an effort to cash in on someone else's discoveries. Maybe that's worthwhile in species where new stuff sells for $50,000 each, but in corns I won't even consider such a thing. That alone is enough for me to say I'll never be involved in that particular effort.

My only interest is in establishing a database, a very large family tree. I could see having breed standards for Okeetees, Miamis, Candycanes, Sunglows, and Reverse Okeetees but that's an entirely different and independent issue.

I can certainly understand your concern over a fee. However, all fees were originally set by polling 50 owners and breeders and taking an average. Then this average was compared to other registries. As I personally thought it was still too high, we reduced the fees even further. The fees were meant as a deterrent to those who come up with a different color or pattern and name it some crazy thing and attempt to pass it off as a new morph or pattern. Second, the reality is we have worked for almost two years for free and but webmasters and database experts will have to be paid eventually. Stamps to mail registration papers still cost money and we hope to avoid banner ads to keep it going. Since everyone should be able to see the money making potential for themselves by offering registered reptiles, everyone should make money including those working in the CMPR. After all, I would think the AKC pays their staff...

Originally Posted by Joejr14

The problem with any breeder that has a decent number of adults, are the hatchlings. To expect a big breeder to essentially waste hours taking pictures of thousands of hatchlings---well, that's just not going to happen.

We've gotta come up with something dealing with breeders and hatchlings.

OK. First, and perhaps this is not clear, but every hatchling does not have to be photographed. Only examples, male and female of new morphs/patterns need photos. That way, judges have something to go on when they are judging against standards in the Awards of Excellence competitions. As a registered breeder, if you would like to post a quality photo for rotation on the front page for free advertising, the opportunity is there. Sorry for the confusion.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

{Wet blanket mode ON}

But without photos of the individual animal, you have no protection at all against fraud. Counterfeit documentation would be simple to make up unless you do something special with the type of paper or special imprinting seal. Anything that can be just printed on regular paper can be scanned in and counterfeited in a heartbeat.

Plus what about all of the followup work? How many phone calls and emails would I want to have to handle asking me to check on the registry of such and such animal. Which, quite frankly, I would have NO way to verify. Do I charge people for complying with their request?

To give you an example, years ago when I lived in Maryland, I bred Eastern Indigo Snakes. I gave one of the babies I hatched out to my little brother which he kept for a while, then decided to give to his biology teacher. Anyway a few years after this all took place, this biology teacher came up to me at one of the Mid Atlantic Shows and asked me if I would mind giving him a documenting letter stating that the indigo snake came from me. I refused. I had no way of determining that the animal he had was actually the animal I gave to my brother. So how could I ethically have done that for him?

If someone can come up with a magical formula for this to work, my hat is off to you. But if it is going to add substantially to my workload, with no real return that I can see (come on, do you REALLY think this will allow us to raise prices on these guys?), I am afraid I will have to decline. I am trying to figure out ways to REDUCE my workload, not INCREASE it! And from every angle I have looked at this problem, it appears to be unavoidable that it will not only cost me a substantial amount of money, but it will also involve a substantial amount of time and effort as well. And for what?

What exactly would be the GOAL of something like this? It has to gain something for all involved (or MOST people, anyway) or all won't get involved with it. Particularly if it does not gain something for the people who would have to put the most time, effort, and expense INTO it.

{Wet blanket mode OFF}

Rich, We've thought of that and yes, we've gone to great lengths to minimize any risk of fraud. In fact, you would not have to do anything at all. The CMPR would handle all of that, like the AKC does for dog breeders. I'm working to reduce our workload, too.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Uh, I typically have between 300 and 450 clutches per year...... All of them hatching out around the same time. Most people would not believe the stress levels around here at that time. Oh yeah, the Daytona Beach Expo is right in the middle of it. Sure, I can see people standing in front of my tables miffed because I don't have a certificate for each animal there.

Yes, it's automated. If the workload of offering registration certificates seems overwhelming to you, my suggestion is to try one pattern or morph. Offer papers with those registered animals. Price them out differently. See what happens. We have already done so. The fact is, people want it. The opportunity is there for a greater return. Perhaps we can produce less animals (read: less work) and make more. Every other group of animals does this. Why not reptiles? Feel free to call me at 717-359-8669 or email me at terri@fireandicedragons.com, admin for the Color Morph & Pattern Registry

*Shakes head*, I dont like this one bit. Not at all.

The point of this SHOULD NOT be so breeders can charge "substantially" more. That, in my opinion, is unacceptable.

When this idea was originally brought up last year by Nancy Swamp, I wasn't too sure about it... Actually I was against the whole thing (what can I say other than I'm not one to like change ). But I've thought about it and I've decided that it's definitely an interesting idea, if it can be done cheaply enough to get a lot of people involved.

I'd love to see a huge database of snakes online that anyone could browse. But it doesn't seem like that is the point of this registry:

Originally Posted by Terri S.

As the database builds, registered breeders can access limited generational information and eventually, multigenerational pedigrees (for a nominal fee) to identify lineage, new blood, specific characteristics, local breeders, etc.

I too don't like that Terri S. states that it is a way to increase the cost of the snakes. Yah, I'd like to sell my snakes for more, but at the same time I'd like to eventually get some lavenders and I don't want the price to go back up to $100 per snake, or more, just because it's registered. I've also been patiently waiting for some of the ball python morphs to come down in price so I can afford them. I'd be awfully upset if the prices jumped back up because ball python breeders started a registry.

I don't know. Right now I'd prefer that Connie and Chuck run with it than to see it happen through Terri S. (Sorry Terri) It just seems like they have everyone's interests at heart, not just the interests of the people who are behind this potential registry, and not just to try to make the breeders, who register their snakes, a bunch of money.

I have a feeling that a registry of the sort that Terri S. is talking about will only bring about the ruin of the herp hobby (okay maybe that's a little pessimistic, but still) because only the rich (well.. the people who aren't penny pinchers) will be able to afford any type of animal. Okay, yes, not everyone is going to register their animals, but those who don't probably aren't the people who you are going to want to buy your animals from (unless its someone like Rich who has a huge reputation to begin with that wouldn't need to register his animals for a better rep).

I have a serious problem with the $500 fee to register a new morph. I personally don't have the $500 to do this, and I am going to be starting my own kisatchie project, in which I plan on making snow-type kisatchies. How am I going to register a half clutch of these if I can't even register one because of the $500 fee? I don't like the idea of using this registry to make money. I do like the idea of having the information out there for people to use and find out the genetic backround of their snakes. I think this will help a lot with people tyring to figure out why snows are popping up in clutches that should only have normals and amels. I know I had that problem, and there's not a lot of digging I can do to find out.