"Blued Steel" Pippies!

Originally Posted by Serpwidgets

Jenn, the current hypothesis would make the dilute gene yet another recessive (for lack of a better term) "hypo-like thing," and it is independent of hypo at least. So, this would place all of yours as 66% poss hets.

SOS (grampa) was also het hypo, so there's a decent chance that Josh or Taylor carry hypo, too... translation: your hatchlings are also potentially carrying the hypo gene.

From the paperwork Connie sent us w/ the hatchlings I'd known about the 66% chance for the het hypo. I just forgot about it when I wrote the post last night. But that is about what I expected really. The only real way to be sure would be multiple breeding trials I suspect. Of course, that means I'd have to find a male that is carrying the gene (if that is what is causing the blue paint job! lol ).

Gives me a lot to think about.

Thanks!
Jenn

I was wondering how we would classify the Dilute gene. Will it be added to our long list of Hypomelanistic genes or will be stand alone? It is not simply reducing black pigment, but operating in a different way. It is more like adding white paint to other colors, than a reduction of black pigment.

Well, that depends on if you believe that long list of hypos just "simply reduce black pigment". IMO, only one does...ultra. We know it is an allele to amelanism, which seems to only affect the amount of black pigment. To me, ultra is "the" hypomelanism, so to speak, of the group we call types of hypo. Hypomelanism (standard, hypo A) does have the effect to our eye of having less pigment, but I don't know if that's truly the case or the result of the gene causing less spread of the black resulting in thinner borders and less coverage of the snake with a melanin wash. And what about those coral snows when hypo is in the mix? Not the result of simple "hypomelanism", for sure. Then take Sunkissed...absolutely there are pattern abnormalities at work there. Their hypo look is not the result of "simply reducing black pigment". Lava, same thing...it's more than just reducing pigment.

We call all of these genes "hypomelanistic genes" because of their net effect to our eyes of "lessening the blacks". I'd consider the dilution gene (assuming it's its own recessive gene) a type of hypomelanism as much as the above others are. To me, those animals look "less black" than a normal animal. Yes, other things, too, but that qualifies most of the hypo complex for being in the hypo complex.

From the paperwork Connie sent us w/ the hatchlings I'd known about the 66% chance for the het hypo.

With the realizations we're coming to with the possibility of a "dilute" gene, which may or may not be related/linked to hypo, the genotypes of Josh and Taylor (and their children) are in limbo.

S.O.S. (the grandfather) was an anery motley het hypo, that is known. He was bred to a standard hypo A type ghost with no weirdness in the line (that I know of). Half the clutch were typical ghosts, some anerys, some snows. We know he was an anery motley (q-tipped) het hypo and amel. Gwen (grandmother) was a normal motley known NOT het hypo, but het amel and anery. Josh and Taylor are anerys from that crossing. None of them or their siblings were hypo and none appeared "dilute". They were typical anery mots, some a little lighter (Josh and Taylor), some a little darker, but what I considered within normal variation for the morph.

The first year I bred them, I got a couple snows, some typical anerys, and what I thought was a ghost, so I believed them to be het for hypo A, just like Grandaddy S.O.S. (as well as het amel). Given the results this year and seeing other real ghost motleys, I no longer think that animal was a ghost. I was always taken with his silvery grey "non-brown" coloration, something I haven't seen in ghosts. The results of this year's 2 clutches follow what I saw in that original clutch. A couple snows, 2 "dilutes", and 3 or 4 anerys (all motley).

After reviewing what's been happening, I would say that as of now Josh and Taylor are Anery Motleys, het amel and "dilute", 50% poss het hypo. I'd say that the chances are that both of them are not het hypo if what we believe about the "dilute" trait comes to be.

If we say that "dilute" is an independent recessive gene, then your anery hatchlings would be anery mots, 67% het amel and dilute, poss het hypo and the snow mot is 75% het or homo dilute, poss het hypo.

That's the best I can tell you right now.

I've got a brother to Josh back from Angel and Don Gallagher, who still have siblings from Josh and Taylor's clutch. I've also held back a normal looking anery motley female from the first clutch who has some lovely striping to go with Joshii's (the brother's) nice striping. I'm holding back a pair of "dilute" anery motleys from the second clutch for now out of morbid curiosity pending what becomes of all of these blue/blued-steel/blue motley/dilute discussion and test-breeding. Chuck still has an amel motley sister sibling of Josh and Taylor as well.

It's funny, this coming out in this line. All I wanted from them was to recreate "S.O.S.", the grandfather, in pattern.

Originally Posted by Serpwidgets

Good question. What does it do to normals? Maybe its effect only is visible when the snake lacks reds.

There should be some recovered in the normal phase this year from the hypo lav X blue motley F1s, so maybe we will see. (Or maybe we won't be able to tell. )

Well, Joe posted a pic of what sure could pass for a dilute normal zigzag on the first page. Looks like the black has turned blue and the red has also been reduced. The same sort of thing seems to happen with the blue dog breeds...the reds get reduced, as in the fawn Dobermans. And from what I can remember from the pic of that clutch of normal stripes, hypo stripes and tweener stripes, I think the same thing was happening. I'm really sorry I deleted that thread as that breeder in Gainesville has, so far, not come forth.

I like'um!
A little test breeding should make things more confusing....
Good luck with your project!

Geoff

Just because it feels so good to have a hatchling exactly like the light grey ones Susan has and probably with the same genetic make up Finally I can see some rare/weird morph discussed on this forum IRL EVERY DAY!

I just received an email from Rob about the Blue Motley X Normal het Dilute, Motley, Charcoal, Blood (Blue Motley Pewter) clutch.

The Blue Motley X (Blue X Pewter) pairing have hatched and there are Normal Motleys, Hypo Motleys and Non Motley Blues. I will send some more pics as soon as they have shed. Both the Normal Motley and the Hypo Motley have extreme pink.

He sent me some photos of the Blue Corn (Normal Phase Blue) and a group shot, and they are what he says they are, but the photos were small, so I will wait until he sends me a larger file photo before I post them.

The questions of whether or not a Blue Phase Corn could be produced without the Motley gene in the mix has been answered, but where are the Dilute Normals and Dilute Motleys. I asked Rob if he thought it may be possible, that the Hypo Motley or even the high pink Motley are actually Dilutes and not Hypos at all? I would assume they would be similar and may be very difficult to distinguish a Dilute from a Hypo. They certainly have fooled a few people when combined with Anery.

I've been checking out the dilute gene in Dobermans, as it can affect both black and red, and it's interesting, yet simple recessive genetics. Lets hope it's the same way in corns! Here are a couple of links:
http://www.dpca.org/color.chart.5.html
http://bakaridobes.westhost.com/publ...ourColors.html

Rob sent me some larger file photos of the thumbnails he sent me. The first photo is a shot of the clutch and was intended to show the “Hypo” Motley. I think it looks a little odd to be a “Hypo” Motley, and Rob just “thought” it was a Hypo, but it may be the Dilute Phenotype we were all hoping for. There is a Normal Pattern one in this photo too, which may be of the same phenotype. It will be very interesting to see them after they shed.

I think this clutch is pretty much exactly what you would have expected from a Dilute Anery Motley X Het Dilute, Anery Motley, Charcoal, Blood mating, especially if we didn’t suspect the hypo gene was in the mix. ( Dilutes, Dilute Motley, Blue, Blue Motley, Anery, Anery Motley, Normals)

The last photo is of the Blue with a Normal pattern, so now combined with the Striped Blues, the “Blues” are certainly is not a Motley phenomenon.

Here are a couple more photos that Rob sent me of Blues compared to Anerys.