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Calico Corn Information?
- Thread starter Topazfyre
- Start date
P-eversole
New member
Anal plates split down the middle like the scales on the tail, but as i said you must get a better picture on your monitor than I do. regardless by counting head scales this snake still doesnt match any elaphe. I too would like to know if it was ever breed and to what. If so, what happened?
P-eversole
New member
I think a snake like this deserves being revisited, and i thought it looked like a prime chance for people to sharpen there classification skills. I had reserved myself to being wrong about the anal plate, but if you zoom in on the picture it is very obviously single.
zeewhiz
Call me Matt...
Well, the "owner" is a jackhole, and even made threats to me (like, "I know where you live", and stuff like that). That's old history tho, although I'd have love to seen him try something. Still, this snake is old enough to where we should have seen some progeny off of it by now, at least f1's, possibly f2's. On top of that, many of us question the validity of the owners story.
P-eversole
New member
Seems pretty selfish not to spread the wealth, so to speak on a snake with genes like that. It would be nice to know what ever happened to it though.
snakemom1961
Spring is here!
It would be interesting to see if it had bred and what the babies ended up to be. If he sold it for a "hefty" sum, don't you think the new owner would breed it to try and recoup some of the damages?
P-eversole
New member
Yeah, you wouldnt think someone would pay a whole bunch of money for something and not try to make money back. It would be nice to see some babies out of the snake, or at least see what is being done with it.
Buzzard
two corny
I just read the whole post...Dang thats hard to do and work... My first thought at the very first pic was Rat Snake. Black rat intergrades have some red orange in them. I bet this is a Lucy rat or a cross with a Lucy rat and a Intergraded Black or grey rat snake. If there is corn snake blood there it is very little......
ForkedTung
Serpent Mound Monk
Good Call! My guess would be that it was 'produced' as well.
Buzzard
two corny
Agreed....produced.... Why cant someone say hey I produced this snake?
Jim Godfrey
Not In The Click
I have held this snake, and I think it is a corn. I'd like to hear from the experts on it. Bill Love also held and photographed it. He calls it a corn. Jeff Galewood and Jeff Mohr saw it in person. Don Soderberg and Rich Z have seen the pics. Let's hear from them. It seems to me that whenever a known breeder comes up with a new morph it is accepted for the most part, but whenever someone unknown in the herp world finds something new it is dubbed a hybrid. I went through the same thing three years ago when I found a new morph of greenish ratsnake in the wild.
P-eversole
New member
Camby
He will join us or die
Thank you, I am so relieved that you and some of the others have cleared this whole situation up. I wish I had the abilities and talent to merely look at photos of undetermined snakes and immediately know their make up!
OK, fine, I am willing to go along with this possibility but not blindly. So, what FACTUAL data do you bring to the table to suggest this snake is a rat snake, integrade or hybrid? One of the more common arguments I have seen is that it's head looks like that of a rat snakes and not a corn. Well, I think one thing that throws people is the lack of typical corn coloration and patterning. Look at a bloodred, amel bloodred, sunkissed or some of the other traits that take away the oculur stripe and typical head patterning, they don't really look like a corns to me. Just my theory, that and the fact I have had the opportunity to hold and examine the snake a few times.
Second biggest argument is "no way a snake that bright could survive in the wild to be that big when caught". Bull crap, it happens, it wasn't an adult, but an albino northern pine was captured in the 80's. It was still 18" or more, it survived. Jim Godfrey of Rebel Rat Snakes caught a pale colored greenish rat snake at around 18"-20", it was surviving. A friend of mine caught a high white reverse striped cal king in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. It was 26" long and had clearly been living in the wild as an ascapee for some time, he had numerous scars, he was surviving. Wasn't there an albino green anaconda caught in the wild 12-15 years ago. It was like 3 feet or more I THINK. Tons of predators in that area to feed on a snake that size but it was surviving. There was an adult "t-positive" cane break rattlesnake caught in SC a few years ago, it was surviving SO, I really don't buy into that "it's to brightly colored argument". Just too many examples of this not being true. PLus, don't forget, wc anery corns are captured regularly, they aren't "normal colored"
Back to my original question, several people have posted on here "why doesn't the owner give the locality, what he used to produce it, how much he paid... Well, why don't these same people post their "facts" on how they so easily dismiss this snake as not wc or not pure corn? Heck, I can say I "thinkOR] any number of things but it doesn't mean squat. So hear is your chance, drop some real knowledge on us. Convince us of your thoughts rathern than trying to guess/conjecture us into submission.
Basically the same comments as above, give us the data you have that draws you to this conclusion. For that matter, most people readily accept that the first amel and motley were wild caughts right? Same for the caramel, lavender, hypo, aneries...so why is this guy immediately a man made integrade/hybrid, should we go back and question the others?
Finally, this is not aimed at anyone in particular, just a rub I have witnessed in this forum, "the source" and k.com. It is funny how many people have 2-3 or maybe 6-7 corns they have kept for 2-3 years at the most, but they will argue you into the ground on what they know. That strikes me as funny sometimes like when it has happened on even this post. They will argue against people that have 10-15-20 or more years of experience, lol. Maybe it is just me, but if a man has been doing something successfully for 10 years or more, then I am typically going to listen and then make up my mind. I am just odd like that I guess.
Oh and the butt hole in me begs this question, how many of the people posting on this thread questioning the validity of this snake also own an ultramel???????:sidestep:
OK, fine, I am willing to go along with this possibility but not blindly. So, what FACTUAL data do you bring to the table to suggest this snake is a rat snake, integrade or hybrid? One of the more common arguments I have seen is that it's head looks like that of a rat snakes and not a corn. Well, I think one thing that throws people is the lack of typical corn coloration and patterning. Look at a bloodred, amel bloodred, sunkissed or some of the other traits that take away the oculur stripe and typical head patterning, they don't really look like a corns to me. Just my theory, that and the fact I have had the opportunity to hold and examine the snake a few times.
Second biggest argument is "no way a snake that bright could survive in the wild to be that big when caught". Bull crap, it happens, it wasn't an adult, but an albino northern pine was captured in the 80's. It was still 18" or more, it survived. Jim Godfrey of Rebel Rat Snakes caught a pale colored greenish rat snake at around 18"-20", it was surviving. A friend of mine caught a high white reverse striped cal king in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. It was 26" long and had clearly been living in the wild as an ascapee for some time, he had numerous scars, he was surviving. Wasn't there an albino green anaconda caught in the wild 12-15 years ago. It was like 3 feet or more I THINK. Tons of predators in that area to feed on a snake that size but it was surviving. There was an adult "t-positive" cane break rattlesnake caught in SC a few years ago, it was surviving SO, I really don't buy into that "it's to brightly colored argument". Just too many examples of this not being true. PLus, don't forget, wc anery corns are captured regularly, they aren't "normal colored"
Back to my original question, several people have posted on here "why doesn't the owner give the locality, what he used to produce it, how much he paid... Well, why don't these same people post their "facts" on how they so easily dismiss this snake as not wc or not pure corn? Heck, I can say I "thinkOR] any number of things but it doesn't mean squat. So hear is your chance, drop some real knowledge on us. Convince us of your thoughts rathern than trying to guess/conjecture us into submission.
Basically the same comments as above, give us the data you have that draws you to this conclusion. For that matter, most people readily accept that the first amel and motley were wild caughts right? Same for the caramel, lavender, hypo, aneries...so why is this guy immediately a man made integrade/hybrid, should we go back and question the others?
Finally, this is not aimed at anyone in particular, just a rub I have witnessed in this forum, "the source" and k.com. It is funny how many people have 2-3 or maybe 6-7 corns they have kept for 2-3 years at the most, but they will argue you into the ground on what they know. That strikes me as funny sometimes like when it has happened on even this post. They will argue against people that have 10-15-20 or more years of experience, lol. Maybe it is just me, but if a man has been doing something successfully for 10 years or more, then I am typically going to listen and then make up my mind. I am just odd like that I guess.
Oh and the butt hole in me begs this question, how many of the people posting on this thread questioning the validity of this snake also own an ultramel???????:sidestep:
ForkedTung
Serpent Mound Monk
Wow Camby, Why don't you tell us how you really feel?
Seriously I think it's pretty clear that Buzzard, myself and others are speculating. You will find this happening on internet forums with frequency. There is, as far as I know, no requirement to post facts when posting on this forum, especially considering the claims are not ours.
Just because we voice our opinions, does not mean we are trying to "guess/conjecture us ( anyone) into submission." It's really nothing quite so dramatic, just opinions and I'm well aware of the value they don't have.
. I/We are not making any definitive conclusions but answers to the questions you posed
"why doesn't the owner give the locality, what he used to produce it, how much he paid...?" Would probably go a long way towards at the very least curbing some of this speculation and so would this as Mr. Godfrey pointed out,
Seriously I think it's pretty clear that Buzzard, myself and others are speculating. You will find this happening on internet forums with frequency. There is, as far as I know, no requirement to post facts when posting on this forum, especially considering the claims are not ours.
Just because we voice our opinions, does not mean we are trying to "guess/conjecture us ( anyone) into submission." It's really nothing quite so dramatic, just opinions and I'm well aware of the value they don't have.
. I/We are not making any definitive conclusions but answers to the questions you posed
"why doesn't the owner give the locality, what he used to produce it, how much he paid...?" Would probably go a long way towards at the very least curbing some of this speculation and so would this as Mr. Godfrey pointed out,
I/we could very,very well be wrong, it happens, but I find a little healthy skepticism a positive thing as long as it doesn't become fanatical.
reptile_jones
New member
True, but what if they are breeding it and the "look" is not genetic.
You only want to spend a "hefty" sum for the first of a kind and not the one of a kind.
reptile_jones
New member
Looks like a single scale to me.
Camby
He will join us or die
I really had no issue with the way yours was worded, you said "my GUESS", while "buzzard" stated it this way "If there is corn snake blood there it is very little...... " and "Agreed....produced.... Why cant someone say hey I produced this snake?". His are more concrete statements rather than conjecture or discussion.
Still though, except for p-eversole, very few have offered data on why, rather they just say "I think", "I bet", and so on and so on. You are right, there is no requirement for persons to post only facts. However, lots of people come to this site for learning and I would rather teach them with factual data rather than saying "no way that is pure" but never saying why they feel that way. What kind of a discussion is that?
Lastly, I am betting if Don, Rich, Bill Love, or other respected breeders say they think it is pure, then the majority will go with them, but to me that is a sign of how ignorant others are to corns. That is not a slight at all on the breeders I just listed, but what does it say when all the minions are "betting it is a creation", "very little corn blood". Just because the breeders claim it is pure, is that what is required to established purity? Just seems funny people think it is not pure and will argue against no names like me and others, but when a big timer says it, it is the word.
The same thing happened the first time I posted on here. I posted pics of a banded anery male I picked up from SMR. At the time, he thought the animal might have been a cinder. Well, people started saying "that is not a banded, that is not an anery or a cinder, that is a ghost" and on and on. But several of the posters said "if Don comes on here and says it is a banded or anery or cinder, then I will believe it." It didn't hurt my feelings, I could care less, but I thought it was funny is all.
Now I am begining to remeber why I stoped posting on this site so much (no directed at any one person)
dc