Please Help: Snake with Possible Broken Vertebrae

Sounds like he's on the road to recovery, (gentle) hugs to him!

I agree, the fact that he ate at all seems like good news, and like someone said earlier, he just may not be using enough calories to need the 4 mice right now.

It sounds like he's going to be ok... I'm pulling for him!

This is certainly an unusual case! So sorry to hear about it!

I am glad you had a reptile vet who was able to help you. Maybe the snake crawled up the side of the cage, and fell over onto a piece of cage furniture? They do that all the time, but if he hit something "just right" (or just wrong!), maybe it caused the injury? He is in a bigger cage than most rats / corns live in, so maybe he had a little extra room to fall? If he had a preexisting condition (maybe congenital), then maybe a small injury caused it, something that would not have caused such an injury without a prior problem? This is all just speculation - your vet would be far more qualified to hazard a guess than I am.

I agree with the others - if a corn / rat is eating and digesting properly, it is an EXCELLENT sign that they don't feel too badly. Feeding / digesting is usually the first thing to decline whenever they suffer ANY health problem. The fact that he ate less than usual (as your other snakes did) may mean he is less active, or it may mean that it is almost winter in NY, lol! Even if you keep heat on them, they usually still know!

Also, the fact that he can move normally throughout his body, and that he doesn't seem to have any pain or impairment other than the protrusion, bodes very well for his recovery, in my opinion. I believe you said that you moved him to a smaller cage. Just on the slim chance that he is prone to falling and injuring himself in the future, it might be good to keep him in a shorter cage, and only allow climbing while out and supervised by you.

BTW, my own experience with pain in snakes is kind of strange - on one hand, if I have to pinch their tails a little, perhaps while removing dead skin, they seem very sensitive. OTOH, if I pinch a tail in deli lid (I feed all f/t pinks in deli cups, and OCCASIONALLY have caught a tail - yuck!) , while they may thrash around for a minute or two, just as often they quietly EAT their pink, and patiently wait for me to come and release them, without any sign of pain.

When I have had to use a large gauge needle to aspirate egg contents, the females will sometimes flinch a little, but very often, they hardly seem to notice. I have seen various wounds over the years, and the snake usually does pull away when it is treated, but they often don't seem to react as strongly as a mammal does with the same type of wound.

Sure hope your snake does well, and comes out with nothing worse than a minor cosmetic imperfection. Keep us updated, and let us know if the vet has any new info for you. Good luck!

Hi Kathy...
Thank you so so much for your kind words on my poor injured boy. Coming from you it meant alot. Can I say I have your book or would that be just too....corny? <grins at her pun>

He is moving, though it is sometimes VERY odd. A few times I have found him in what seemed impossible positions for a snake to assume...he was almost in a knot, and part of the tangle had him flipped so his belly was on top, and the angles...it looked like a sadist animal abuser had crumpled him and bent him in ways that were just against nature. It was very distressing and I have to confess I helped him (gently) assume a more natural pose. It looked like the pose HE was in would break even MORE vertebrae. At times he does seem to have issues with mobility, even ABOVE the level of the injury. Ive seen him move oddly sideways, like a drunken sidewinder snake.

He defacated today and I found him LYING in it. I had to move him to clean him and the cage. I didnt like that. I know my vet wanted to re X Ray in 4-6 weeks, which will be endish of November. I will likely give it 8 weeks to give the healing more time (and casts are left on people for 8 weeks).

I guess I will make up my own snake physical therapy after the re X Ray. Hes used to having floor time (supervised freedom in my living room) so I guess I can do that and encourage movement or mobility.

Im not so sure he will be neurologically intact now, but Im hoping it wont be too bad.

Susan

Sorry to hear that...

It does sound a little less promising. Maybe he will have some neurological damage. But some or all may heal. I have had corns exhibit neurological damage from toxins (No Pest Strips, many years ago). If it didn't kill them outright, then I would usually see a slow recovery for at least some of the symptoms. But of course, this is not the same thing, although the damage could be similar. I guess there is not much to be done except for the best, supportive, nursing care that you can give.

Hope it works out ok!

Hi Kathy and all...
Today I saw clear incontrovertible signs that my boy has some degree of neurological damage.

I had leftover mice from another snake, so offered them to Maitreya (the injured one). He ATE them, 2 small mice, so that was good...

But the damage I saw was that after he ate, he defacated. And he could not lift his tail like normal snakes do. He only managed to raise it slightly, and he had difficulties in expelling the feces...but he did it, obviously with an effort. And I see him moving, and that back half of his is dragging somewhat.

So...what do you all think? He eats, so hes not in pain. But is it ETHICAL to leave a rather large 6 and a half foot snake alive who seems half paralysed? He does manage to move around, though with difficulty...will he strengthen his front half to accomodate his back half's weakness?

My vet (through the secratary) says bring him in again for a re-exam. I dont think thats a good idea as hes supposed to stay still. I cant help HIS choice to move, but I can certainly not add to the potential damage. And its not like there is anything that the vet CAN DO. IF there was an intervention, that would be one thing. But as far as I know, there isnt.

So, thats where I am now, and he is.
At least he ate.
Sincerely,
Susan

OK....
Im really irritated. Had a long conversation with my veterinarians secratary regarding the impairment I saw and the futility of bringing him to a vet when the vet couldnt do much if anything. Long and short of it is that she says the vet, after an neurological exam, can prescribe "an anti-inflammatory". Again I reiterate how I think moving him after a broken spine is just a LOUSY idea and why, since I am saying there are now clear signs of impairment we just cant give this anti inflamatory a try without the exam which I think is so risky and dangerous? He, she says, will refuse to even SPEAK to me, and certainly wont prescribe a medication over the phone without an exam.

On one hand, I understand that, somewhat. Im a nurse myself, and good practice IS actually to not prescribe by telephone. BUT, the snake IS severely injured, and my vet does know I am a nurse, well aware of medical stuff. The secratary said my vet wouldnt have asked me to bring him in if he didnt think it was safe. The impairment is clear to me. EVERY nerve in my body along with my medical training says its NOT safe to move him. Im not asking for a narcotic, here, after all. Im asking for what he said...a simple anti inflamatory, and given this situation in this setting I think he should tell me what to use, over the phone. (Its probably prednisone, Im betting...but I have no idea of its dosage on a snake).

So...unbiased folks...am I right to be upset and angry at the vet? Am I wrong? Opinions are welcome. At this point I am so mad I could think of a new veterinarian...but mine is a reptile expert. He did literally write the book (ok, a book) on reptillian veterinary care.

Sincerely,
Susan

Well, do you love him? If he isn't in pain, and he's getting around, and he's eating and pooping, are you willing to keep him in that condition, if he doesn't get better?

I have a bird with one leg, which is paralyzed, who doesn't fly, but still eats and gets around his rather spacious enclosure, who is able to look out the window all day for entertainment, who comes out every evening to watch TV with me. The vet agrees that he still has a nice quality of life, though 99% of bird keepers would have had him PTS a long time ago. If I am lucky, he will be with me another ten years.

But- how do you tell what a snake's quality of life is? Can they even be said to enjoy life at all? Which is why I ask if you love him- do you get pleasure from his company? Would you miss him terribly if he was gone?

I also have a kinked snake who has some diminished movement in her lower third to half. At the beginning, she would drag the last half of herself. She still climbs and swims and does everything a normal snake would do. Eats and sheds normally. I've never seen her poo, but she does it. Lately, she seems to be gaining strength down there, and can coil her tail, and now grips me with it. She now appears to be moving the lower half when she crawls, though she does list to one side a little bit.

For her, I decided that since she is the most active of all my snakes, and is always busy doing something, as long as she is eating and shedding and pooping without a problem, she has the right to live. If I and my vet decide that she is suffering, then she will be PTS. But I waited a LONG time for this particular result of a breeding, and she is fun to watch, and now big enough to come out and handle, and I get a lot of pleasure from her- she always makes me smile.

Well, I _do_ work in x-ray, and see people with broken spines walking around all the time. It depends on if the fracture is stable. But- your snake has a neurological deficit- so _is_ the fracture stable? I don't really understand why he won't talk to you on the phone to reassure you that it is safe to bring him in...If you switch vets, you probably aren't going to get away without bringing him in for an initial exam, anyway.

Lyreiania first allow me to say that I am sorry your beloved snake may be ill.
I would like to add a few things if that's alright.

First and foremost, the fact that you're a nurse does allow you to understand some things better than most people.
However, were you aware that snakes are extremely susceptible to extreme liver damage when receiving meds because their liver is very sensitive?
Even the most minor of doses should be properly applied and diluted with a lot of fluids.
Also, it is quite possible that the side effects of the medication he had in mind were dangerous unto themselves and can cause serious damage if given in under certain conditions? I doubt he had anything but the wellfare of the snake in mind- even if only it's the byproduct of maintaining his own liability.
Also, you can't really know how many people try to speak to him directly all day long. It is quite possible that he was simply busy, or was forced to create said policy.

On a different note, sometimes the nerve system manages to slowly recover itself. It's never quite the same, and it doesn't always happen- but it does sometime happen. For instance, a good friend of mine had his male Guinea Rainbow Boa slipped his head out of his cage and someone accidentally closed the glass terrarium door on his neck. At first he was totally paralyzed- but lo and behold, he is now a father to two generations of little baby boas, and he moves about- sure, he can't move to the left, but he's alive and well.
If he eats, defecates and does not respond violently to being touched( that's a good sign to know that you're hurting them) I think you should allow him to try and recover on his own.

It's a crappy situation to have to deal with though, I am really sorry.

I am so sorry that you and your snake have to go through this. But I have seen recovery and partial recovery from some fairly bad neurological symptoms, although it may take quite a long time. So I have to agree that if he doesn't seem in pain, and is living relatively normally (eating, drinking, defecating, etc), then you should give him as much time as possible to evaluate him at a later date.

I can't really speak to the vet policy as I don't know everything about the situation. But I was also a nurse many years ago, and even back then, liability was always an important issue to be concerned with, as I am sure you are well aware. For the doctor (human or animal), then liability is even a greater concern than it is for the nurse.

Hi Nanci, Kathy, Kokopelli,
Thank you all so much for your words and thoughts. I DO love him and would be miserable without him; that, however is no excuse to keep a creature alive who is suffering. Kindness would be to end such a life; selfishness would be to continue it, I feel. Fortunately, I see NO signs that my snake is suffering.

He continues to eat and poop. He also seems to have a bit more use of his body distal to the fracture site. I have been working with him...massaging the tail and encouraging use, and it seems to be helping. He is big enough that I CAN work with his tail and lower third without affecting or disturbing the site of the fracture in any way, shape or form. When I massage him, he contracts his muscles, and at times can arch his back. At times when I massage him distal to that fracture he slithers, sort of. He responds more to firm touch than to light touch. He seems to have lost the ability to fully slither but when I work with him hes better at it. He gets around his cage though, and its a big one (135 gallons). At times he will tie himself in a knot, however. I help him gently out of it. He flipped his tail today, so he does have abilities....seeming better towards his tail which makes no sense. He just needs aggressive snake physical therapy, which I am trying to improvise. (Any ideas??) If only I could take him out of his cage, Id have him swim in the bathtub.

Thanks for all your ideas, and thoughts...and I will keep you all updated on his continuing progress.

Sincerely,
Susan

I may be incorrect, but as far as i knew, when nerves are damaged, the WHOLE nerve has to die, and is then rebuilt, bit by bit, over the course of months. THEN, once it is rebuilt, continued attempts at usage will train the brain on how to USE that nerve again.

So, with it being a relatively recent injury... I would continue to give him time. He sounds like he's still BEHAVING like a snake, and with normal, everyday activity, his brain will be forced into learning how to use any repaired nerves over time.

With how easy it is for snakes to go off feed when stressed, I think the fact that he's eating, pooping, and moving around would be a good indicator that he's not in a significant, that is to say insurmountable, amount of pain.

Hang in there, both of you. Calm, non-jarring vibes being sent your way.

Snake's X RAY

Hello all....
Ive finally recieved the emailed X RAY. Here it is, the displacement is clear to me even though Im no radiologist. Any opinions on HOW this might have happened judging from the X RAY are more than welcome. Prognosis guesses based on the X Ray are more than welcome also. I THINK I uploaded this but the image isnt showing.
Susan

My first thought is a crush injury from above. Nice film!

Does it look to anyone else like it's knitting, a little?

Very nice film... hang in there guys!

Nanci,
Thanks for your input; you are the second one to say it seems like a crush injury (first person, a neurologist/ surgeon for humans wondered if he was stepped on). From what you see, how severe is this break? To ME it looks devastating; quite severe but I am not a radiologist. From what you see, what do you feel a prognosis may be? I know its only a guess on your part. DID it sever or touch the spinal nerve, you think?

Anyways, I thank you for your input...do you think he can heal from this now youve seen the extent of the damage? And is it actually as bad I think it looks?

Darcpixie, this X ray was taken the day after I noticed the injury (oct 11) so there shouldnt be bone knitting...Dr Raiti said it looked like a new break. If however you meant knitting as in actually knitting with yarn, yeah, I can kind of see that in the pattern of the ribs and vertebrae. As a nurse, I do appreciate the interest of a unique X Ray, as my snakes MOMMY, Im horrified. <smiles>
Thank you for your input as well

Sincerely,
Susan

If it's any consolation, my Pumpkin's X-rays looked much worse than that - a whole series of displaced vertebrae, with broken ribs to add to the mix. My vet also asked me if I'd stepped on him.

As for prognosis, I really think that only time will tell. As has been said before, the fact that he's eating is a reasonable indicator that he's not in distress. Refusal to feed is a major sign of a problem, which yours doesn't have.

My vet was philosophical, and said that he'd seen Corns lead what otherwise seemed to be normal lives, with much worse skeletal damage that he saw in mine (and that was stomach-churning).

My guess is that yours has tried to jam himself underneath/in-between something, like my dimwit beastie did. Has he tried to lift the lid of the tank? Are there any heavy hides in with him? Did he try to squeeze between sliding glass doors?

The problem is, until/unless you catch him at it (like I did), you'll never know for sure.

My (human) radiologist says the severity of the injury is judged by neurological deficit- so movement/feeling below the level of the injury is a good sign, however, the "lines" of the spine (how all the aspects of one vertebrae sitting on top of another flow in an imaginary line) are interrupted and not smooth, and he wonders if bone fragments are impinging upon the spinal canal from above.

This shows "lines" in a human cervical spine.

http://tinyurl.com/5l2lv3

Snake's Fracture, Top View

Hi all...
I have another X Ray for your perusal. And Im deeply appreciative of all the support guidance and encouragement Ive had from all whove replied. It certainly does make this easier knowing you all are here. I hope I can one day repay all your kindnesses.

The break is clear here but the other view is better. Im horrified at the injury, but what a beautiful and intricate thing nature is...this X Ray is quite lovely in its symetry...aside from the fracture. Snake is the same. I have to take him water so he can drink...his mobility issues are showing, though he does react to my touch (well distal to the break, of course).
Sincerely,
Susan