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Rich Z's Blatherings Since Connie and I have retired the SerpenCo business, topics here will focus on topics of a more personal and general nature.

The purchase of lone or extra females..
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Old 07-03-2002, 04:50 PM   #41
Darin Chappell
A friend of mine had a bloodred male that had been a proven producer for him. I wanted some bloodreds, so I went about to find bloodred females last year (good luck!)). I was only able to find two girls, one het for bloodred and the other a possible het for bloodred, from Kathy Love. Now, this was before she raised her price on lone females, but I CERTAINLY would have understood her reasoning and paid the price anyway because i needed those females for this spring. Now, that male has since died in my buddy's care and I am left with no male to breed to these females. So, I bought a bloodred male from Don Sodorberg, and I picked up the steal of a lifetime on an amel bloodred male. I also have a 1.1 pair of hypo bloodreds from Rich coming in August. I'll be switched (time tested hillbilly saying there) if I have a spring where I have NOTHING to breed to waiting females!

Go ahead and raise your prices if you need to, Rich. Just remember to give those of us who have supported you in this that *special* discount on our multi-pair purchases in the future


Darin

P.S. For those who might not know this little trick, if you take some shavings from the tank of one male and put them in with a reluctant 1.1 pair, the hesitant male will often be spurred on to performance by the "competitor" smell lurking about. Just a thought!
 
Old 07-03-2002, 04:53 PM   #42
SilverTongue
I just have to ask a question. What do yall base the cost of your snakes on. Granted i know some breeds are tougher to come by because you have to get the right pair together at the right time, but what do yall base the price on? Example.... I have seen '02 blizzards range from $40-$85. Sure you can say well they dont have the cool breeding my snakes do and the nice bloodline... But think about it really....They most likely got their blizzards from one of you big breeders in the first place. So it wuopuld be basically the same. I just wanted to know it there was a better reason other then bloodlines to explain the cost hike with some of the bigger breeders.
 
Old 07-03-2002, 05:13 PM   #43
Colleen
Thumbs up Bloodline = quality

What your saying is true but I have seen Candy Canes here that were from SMR parents(she says anyway) that are a far cry from the ones that you would get from one of the bigger breeds like Rich. You may luck out and get a stunning animal for the bargain price but in my experience you'd better see at least a photo first! Also the little breeder will be hard pressed to replace your animal if there happens to be something wrong thing it. I like the comfort of the big breeders guarentees. Also their name does carry their reputations for quality stock. If you are looking to breed and hopefully sell your babies for alittle profit that means alot.( don't worry Rich I have no plans to quit my day job! I would like to at least make enough to support my hobby. BTW if you can tell me how to get out of being a Mom/ Teacher/ Home Manager I'd love to know how, at least long enough for a bubble bath!)

I for one am more than willing to pay the extra dime to ensure I get healthy, quality animals! And don't forget, if you have a problem like your baby won't eat, who would you rather call on for advice?

JMHO!


Colleen

Ps Can't believe I forgot this part... The big breeders have also put countless hours/years into making their Corns up to the high quality they are and should be paid for their efforts. If they didn't produce the numbers they do and all that involves, then there wouldn't be people with a pair of there animals to breed and then sell at cut rate prices! Thats why they can do that THIER time wasn't put into making that cultivar and refining it!

Silver Tongue..sounds harsh not meant too!
 
Old 07-03-2002, 05:52 PM   #44
Rich Z
One thing that probably not many new people in this realize, is that there is not, in most cases, any such thing as 'unrelated' pairs when you are talking about genetic cultivars. Unless someone else spontaneously produced another line of Lavenders, or Caramels, or Blood Reds, or Stripes, etc, they are ALL related in some fashion. It can be no other way. The thing you have to consider is how close are you to the root stock when you want to buy YOUR breeding stock?

This, in a fashion, will answer SilverTonque's question. Let's take for example the Caramel (Butter) corns. I produced the very first ones back in 1991. As far as I know ALL Caramels/Butters that exist on this planet today came from the original animal I got that was a wild caught animal that probably carried this gene. I say 'probably' because a spontaneously produced genetic trait is certainly possible and I can't rule that out. In which case, those original few that hatched out then were the original ancestors of ALL Caramels/Butters today. I have been outcrossing and breeding Caramels/Butters from the beginning, and in the process have developed multiple lines of them to work with. The earlier you start with something new, the more time you have to produce multiple generations of this strain, as well as get lines that are further and further removed from the original root stock.

Ordinarily, when someone buys a pair of offspring from the originator, the new owner will grow up this pair, breed them together and then offer those offspring for sale. They are directly related, no doubt about it. Someone else buys a pair from this person, grows them up, breeds them, then offers yet another generation of offspring for sale. And so on and so on. See what I mean? The most likely source of the most unrelated stock POSSIBLE normally will come from the originator of the genetic stock. Without interrogating everyone else on the upper branches of the tree to find the EXACT path their stock came from, this is the safest way to get stock that is as unrelated as possible.

And yes, the originator is probably going to charge more for his/her animals. Not only for the reason mentioned above, but they will also have a substantial head start on selectively breeding that cultivar to enhance the positive aspects of that strain that perhaps were only hinted at in the original generation. Guess what? They probably kept the best ones for themselves, and used those animals to produce subsequent generations.

So what the decision may often be is buying an animal for $15 from someone whom perhaps bought one of the adults at a local pet shop and isn't too sure if it's an Okeetee, but it sure looks like one, or paying twice or more than that from someone whom has been selectively breeding them for generations and can tell you with reasonable certainty that at least some of the blood running through that animals veins came from an animal that was captured on Okeetee Hunt Club back in the early '80s.

As for Colleen's question, yes you have hit a nail right on the head that many people haven't even known about. Personally, I like doing herp shows that are BIG and well attended with a lot of vendors. Why? Because a LOT of my business is to other vendors. Substantially so. Several years ago, I had an amusing incident take place at a show. I was working with Honduran milk snakes at the time and as always other vendors would stop by our tables during setup. We normally sell animals before the doors ever open up, and I just assumed this person liked the looks of my Hondurans and wanted them for his own stock. Anyway after that show was over and we were back home, I got a call from someone whom sounded kind of baffled. At that time, I used to put a sticker on the bottom of the deli cups identifying SerpenCo as the source of the animal purchased. Well this person had bought a single Honduran Milk Snake from me and then went off to check the other tables to try to find an unrelated mate. He said that when he got home, he was trying to remember which he got from which vendor and noticed that the deli cup he was looking at had my sticker on the bottom of it. But then he checked the other one, and my sticker was on that cup as well. So apparently all that other vendor did was to put my snakes on his table and resell them.

Also, when many breeders run short of some animals to sell, a lot of them will buy from other breeders and resell that stock to fill their own orders. This will certainly be an eye opener for a lot of people. And before you ask, NO, I personally do not buy animals for resale nor broker other people's animals.

Let's face it people. There is a core group of corn snake breeders in this country that have been working and breeding corn snakes for longer than some of you have even been alive. What are the chances that you can even FIND a non-normal colored or patterned corn snake that DOESN'T have an ancestor somewhere that came from one of us?
 
Old 07-03-2002, 09:11 PM   #45
Bippy
Pricing...

I've actually seen lavenders at a show last year for $75. I guess that's probably all the local market will bear, but still... pretty cheap for one of the more recent morphs out there. If I'dve been able to get one of them at the time, I probably would have.

I think my biggest problem is I have a greater interest in some of the higher-end morphs, and can't afford to get 2.2 of everything. Most of what I have is either 0.1 or 1.0, with a few 2.0/0.2's. Oh well. Someday.
 
Old 07-04-2002, 12:52 AM   #46
drwatts
Very interesting discussion here. I especially enjoyed the historical post by Rich. Surprised to hear that you only recently have quite your other job; must be a type- A personality; sound too much like work to me.

As many have stated ,and I comply, You (Rich) should not feel guilty about allowing the market forces of supply and demand (that this great capalist country has been built upon) dictate your pricing structure. Price as high as the market will bear, all these years of work should provide a monatary benefit. You agruably have the most reconizable name in the business (you and Cathy anyway), and deserve the higher profit margin which corresponds with notability.

One thing you may want to consider when someone request a lone female or females is that this is a sale you may not have made if they were not offered as such. So you may be benefiting and making more sales based on your policies; maybe going with the trend may be unwise. If you are selling all your females quickly and turning customers away as the year progresses you are probably selling them too inexpensively.

Take care.
 
Old 07-04-2002, 09:20 AM   #47
kathylove
Pricing

Somebody wanted to know how a breeder decides a price. In my case, it is mostly my customers who decide, via the old supply and demand rule. Although I generally try to stay "in the ballpark" with most of the other breeders, some of my morphs will be higher or lower than others for a simple reason. I am either selling out too quickly, or have way too many leftover at the end of the season, probably because I produce too few of some and too many of others. Of course, the demand changes from year to year, but usually trends can be predicted. So I have to adjust prices up or down according to the previous year's sales. Unlike most products and services, you will see reptile breeder's prices going down sometimes, not just always up, up, up! (Unlike the electricity, mouse food, or other expenses incurred!)

Each breeder has a particular market and quantity mix of morphs, and a breeding and marketing strategy that(hopefully) works for him or her. That's why prices will always vary from one source to another. Sometimes it may have to do with quality or color, etc. Other times it is just a response to the market.
 
Old 07-04-2002, 10:27 AM   #48
SilverTongue
Do any of you all breeders attend any Texas shows?
 
Old 07-04-2002, 10:43 AM   #49
Alicia
Usually if you check out their websites they have posted the shows that they attend each year. You can also check the website of the show and see if they have a list of vendors posted.

Alicia
 
Old 07-05-2002, 10:10 PM   #50
Clint Boyer
I like this forum............

It's a good way to get a different perspective on the industry. It's really hard to imagine what goes on behind the scenes at a large scale breeders facility (until you've walked a few miles in thier shoes!).

There is a wealth of info here for everyone whether you're projects are intended to produce income or just for fun. I've made my share of mistakes but also had more help then I probably deserved.

I sure hope some of the other large scale breeders decide to participate!
 

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