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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

king snake influence in tessera morph?
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:16 PM   #71
Mitchell Mulks
Quote:
I have a question. Is every snake, world-wide, that has a banded pattern a Cali king hybrid, too? Using the same logic...
No, they are not. However, what your comment above is neglecting to take into consideration is the likelihood and commonplace hybridization of corns and kings. Your comment, in my opinion, is sarcastic in the sense that it's just plain silly for us to even be considering that tesseras are hybridized with striped cal kings because the tessera has a stripe and so does the king; so you draw what you think is equally silly by discussing banded patterns in worldwide snake populations and all of those being possible hybrids. That's just a silly comparison.

The reason that it's a very valid hypotheses that the origins of the tessera morph might stem from a striped cal king are the following (some of which I'll be repeating again):

1. Jungle corns (cal king x corn) hybridizations by herpetoculturists have been occurring since the early eighties, if not even the late seventies. If you give three years for every generation, then in all reality we could be looking at eleventh-generation jungle corns out there. Jungle corns are a wildly popular hybrid morph and have been readily available in the marketplace for a long time. Because of their popularity, and their ease of attainment, it makes a ton more logical sense that if the dominant tessera gene (dominant in cal kings too) were to come from another species, it would be a cal king as opposed to a striped European rat snake (another species so sarcastically bantered about as a possible origin for the tessera). Logic dictates that the jungle corn would best explain the origin of the tessera morph, IF it were a hybrid.

2. The original tessera group came from a random someone who claimed they were produced from a stripe x Okeetee pairing. This person is a random someone who was selling the snakes on the classifieds page. Don was the first to verify that the tessera gene was dominant, but he was not the originator of the line. If the line would have popped up in Don's lines then it'd be a different story, but Don, just like us, had only the person's word who was selling them that these were pure corns. To me, that situation, coupled with the popularity of jungle corns in the herp trade, makes me have to question the legitimacy of tesseras as pure corns. Also, I'm sorry, but I've had the unfortunate experience on multiple occasions of having to hear basement breeders brag how what they sold as pure wasn't. As much as we hate it it occurs regularly in our industry.

3. Below are photos of four snakes. One is an F1 jungle corn (50% cal king x 50% corn) and the other three are F2 super corns (~75% corn x ~25 cal king). Just within a single generation you'll see directional morphological change in the reduction of cal king traits and more towards corn snake features.

Photo #1 - F1 Jungle corn: The snout is still very rounded and more closely resembles a cal king. Furthermore, the nuchal splotch, an indicative trait of cal kings, is still clearly present (the white dot at the back of the head-neck region). However, the dorsal stripe and lateral tessellation are 100% present (both incredibly similar to our beloved tesseras)



Photo #2 - F2 Super corn: The snout is still a bit rounded, but has definitely been modified to be a bit more narrow. The nuchal blotch is now absent and has instead been replaced with a more 'corn' mosaic head pattern. Also, the overall pattern has become more clean (less sketchy like a cal king). Lastly, The body form of the snake is more narrow and the pattern now very closely resembles a tessera corn snake. After only the second generation you can clearly see the transition from king to corn and how the tessera pattern is becoming more and more like our tessera corns. Best yet, right above the cloaca, you'll see the dorsal stripe end and then begin again. That is one of the most common places for a break in the dorsal stripe in tesseras.



Photo #3 - F2 Super corn: Once again, still a bit of a rounded snout, but the head pattern is clearly moving towards the way of a corn snake. Furthermore, the pattern is incredibly consistent with that of a tessera; both in it's mode of inheritance and it's clean dorsal stripe and highly tessellated pattern.



Photo #4 - F2 Super corn (normal pattern): The snout on this F2 hatchling is much more elongated and is lacking the majority of the cal king rounding. Also, the dorsal saddles are much more consistent with a corn than the bands of a cal king. Even more so, the head pattern on this snake would easily pass as pure corn. Furthermore, the first quarter of the dorsal saddles are now fused, just like half the pure corns out there. Even the lateral blotching is more consistent with a corn than with a cal king. If this picture wasn't on this thread, many people might just find some of the oddities associated with it as temperature-related. This animal is shockingly corn snake...and only after 2 generations.



As I said before, I have no dog in this race. However, to simply ignore the potential evidence I've listed within this post would be naive to say at best. While this may not be true at all, there are too many more-than-likey clues in what I've been sharing to make me believe that tesseras are the result of this hybridization as opposed to be a brand new corn mutation.

Like I stated earlier, which is more likely, that the tessera gene appeared out of nowhere in that stripe x Okeetee cross performed by a no-name breeder, or that one of the most popular and common hybrid morphs out there was refined over generations of breeding and then sold to the public as pure? We all have our own projects, so why would it be so outlandish that someone who liked to produce hybrids wanted to see how they could progress their favorite line of jungle corns. We all like tesseras because of their clean patterns, sleek bodies, and incredible dorsal stripes; so why couldn't the hybridizer like the same traits and breed for that over a few generations. In the end though, it's easier to sell animals as pure, as opposed to hybrids. So maybe when the breeder tired of his line and needed some money they simply labeled them as pure corns and concocted a simple story of how it came about from a stripe x Okeetee cross. This possible storyline still seems a whole lot more realistic to me than of the gene simply popping up out of nowhere. People usually know when they have something unique or odd, and to simply let something brand new go like that...it puts a lot of doubts in my head.

What can't be overlooked is how much that F2 normal looks like a corn snake. In just two generations the majority of the morphological characters tell us it's a corn snake. If you were to add two more generations on that snake I have no doubt everyone would accept the offspring as pure corn. That's the incredible power of artificial selection. As the breeders we have complete control over what traits we are selecting for and those we want to eradicate. True, there will be variants in each clutch, some resembling more corn and some more king. However, if you were to perpetuate only the most corn-resembling hatchlings, then you're selecting for all the genes responsible for those morphological characteristics. That's the basis of artificial selection. Like some have pointed out though, there are markers, or abnormalities that will always pop up in each generation, simply because the corn and king genes did not evolve to function with each other. I believe we see those markers in the within-clutch ventral variation seen in tesseras (the range of variation you won't find in other corn morphs within or between clutches). Furthermore, while some traits are variable, such as perfect dorsal stripes versus broken ones, the variation in the dorsal stripes of tesseras I think is another marker. Like I said, I remember Joe telling me that his single tessera male, the one responsible for siring all of those highly aberrant tesseras, came directly from KJ and is likely more genetically similar to the originating tessera stock than all of the ones we're creating now (that could be why his hatchlings are so variable, because they're not as far removed generationally as are the majority of our tessera breeders right now). As I see tesseras hit the market, I'm seeing cleaner and cleaner dorsal stripes; as we artificially select for the more visually pleasing morph.

Anyhow, I'm not saying that tesseras are for sure hybrids, but based upon everything I've been told or read about the history of the tessera morph, coupled with the photo evidence from people working with jungle corn crosses...AND the prevalence of jungle corns in the marketplace, I just think it makes more sense that tesseras probably are hybrid in origin. Hey, I'll be the first to say cool if we can ever prove out molecularly that they are pure corns (which, by the way, is a very expensive and time exhaustive process to do. You don't just run a test that tells you if its a hybrid, you have to identify loci you can test, develop the proper primers and replicate and run the PCRs with great efficacy. So, in other words, if someone who understands how to perform the proper molecular techniques who is also independently wealthy isn't willing to spend their time and money to answer this question...it won't ever be answered with DNA testing!). But until that point I'm going to base my opinion upon all the evidence I have on hand and the likelihood of each possible origin to make my decision. I believe everything points to the high probability that tesseras are hybrid in origin. That is my belief.

What I won't do though is argue with any of you that you're beliefs are not as important to you as mine are to me. Furthermore, regardless of anyone's pasts, I will not defame, nor call into question your character because your belief on the topic is different than mine; to do so is classless. We are all entitled to our beliefs, and we all fight with fervor that our voices be free so that we can share our thoughts, hypotheses and beliefs with others without the fear of prosecution or ridicule. So, for me to do anything else than to share with you what I think is evidence supporting a hybrid origin in the tessera morph, anything that would degrade or belittle any and all of your opinions, would simply show what little class or respect I have for anyone other than myself. The thoughts and ideas of others should not be met so angrily and with as much vehemence as I've seen those with opposing views on this topic be met. I believe, regardless of Joe's past, he has as much a right to speak his mind about his thoughts as any of you do. Now, I'm sure it would have been better to speak his mind in another setting other than within the borders of an ad, but even there, he's simply sharing as much history with potential customers about what he thinks the history of his snakes are as he can. If the same information had been shared in the ad of a known hybrid, no one would have an issue with it at all. Regardless of our own individual thoughts on the topic I hope we can continue discussing this topic with all of us showing the utmost respect towards our peers, and cease the tasteless comments towards people who share differing opinions than ourselves.

Soapbox...off!
 
Old 01-14-2013, 03:46 PM   #72
JimGERcream
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mitchell Mulks again."

Thanks for the posting Mitchell.
 
Old 01-14-2013, 03:46 PM   #73
DMong
Mitch, could you please show me entire clutches of several generations of each of those hybrid examples you posted after being bred to more successive normal cornsnakes?

With all due respect, if that cannot be shown and proven, it doesn't mean much of anything that they look extremely similar in my opinion. Those look similar to what I would expect to see anyway, but the fact that they keep that phenotype when constantly outcrossed to normal corns makes NO sense.


~Doug
 
Old 01-14-2013, 04:29 PM   #74
Buzzard
Has anyone thought that this may just be his way of, or his justification to reduce the price so that we concentrate more on arguing over the morph and less on the price that he is offering them at .... Just my 2 cents. Though I tend to agree, within a couple of years that a normal Tessy will be under $75.

But if we really want to argue the origins of something then go right ahead... No one has "proof" on either side. All that is happening is he said, she said, high schoolish type mentality. We have enough issues in this hobby to worry about.

With all the natural intergrades and the shear number of people breeding snakes there is going to be anomalies that appear. How many times have you looked at a snake and swore it had a "het marker" for something and it ended up not being so. Let it be....

Buzz
 
Old 01-14-2013, 04:50 PM   #75
Nanci
Sorry, that is one person I will never have an iota of respect for, much less the utmost.
 
Old 01-14-2013, 05:23 PM   #76
MysticExotics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanci View Post
Sorry, that is one person I will never have an iota of respect for, much less the utmost.
I agree with Nanci.
There's a difference between making a mistake & one's personal character.
 
Old 01-14-2013, 05:48 PM   #77
Tom Tuttle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitchell Mulks View Post
Like I said, I remember Joe telling me that his single tessera male, the one responsible for siring all of those highly aberrant tesseras, came directly from KJ and is likely more genetically similar to the originating tessera stock than all of the ones we're creating now (that could be why his hatchlings are so variable, because they're not as far removed generationally as are the majority of our Tessera breeders right now). As I see tesseras hit the market, I'm seeing cleaner and cleaner dorsal stripes; as we artificially select for the more visually pleasing morph.
In looking at Joe's pairings from his Tessera 2012 thread at the other site, the females used were a Hypo Bloodred, Pewter, Ghost Bloodred, and a Sunkissed/ ph Snow Lava. I have witnessed when Bloodred or Sunkissed genes are mixed with Tessera you get some very busy patterned offspring. It is possible that this is what we are seeing from the photos Joe has posted in other threads.


This quote in bold below is from the owner & producer of the snakes in the photo's Mitch posted and the OP of the Hypo Super Corn thread at the other site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrotalusCo View Post
Let me say first off that in these discussions we ARE NOT suggesting that tessera come from striped king hybrids. In fact the more testing I do the more I am leaning to the fact that they are not.
 
Old 01-14-2013, 05:51 PM   #78
taxman123
Wow those jungle corns are awesome! I would gladly add one of those into my collection.
Another question is if you have a jungle corn how many generations bred back to a corn snake would it become pure corn?
 
Old 01-14-2013, 05:57 PM   #79
Mitchell Mulks
Tom,

Thank you for posting his quote. This is exactly what I'm talking about; individual opinions. I respect his, but based on the breeding results he shared with us, and my experience as a breeder and a scientist whose dissertation is largely based on heritable character traits, I actually disagree with him and see the cal king as the most probable origin of the trait. His hatchlings are incredible though and I think they reveal a lot to us about how the introgression between two species can play out.
 
Old 01-14-2013, 06:08 PM   #80
Carpe Serpentis
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMong View Post
Mitch, could you please show me entire clutches of several generations of each of those hybrid examples you posted after being bred to more successive normal cornsnakes?

With all due respect, if that cannot be shown and proven, it doesn't mean much of anything that they look extremely similar in my opinion. Those look similar to what I would expect to see anyway, but the fact that they keep that phenotype when constantly outcrossed to normal corns makes NO sense.


~Doug
Entire clutches are not needed to show that some trait can be line bred into an animal and produce progeny that are within a certain guideline. One need only look at the many breeds of dogs that have all been selectively bred to exhibit certain traits to such an extent that these traits are given names such as poodle, zu, pomeranian, klee kai, etc. Man has been breeding hybridizing for a few years now and to think that snakes are one of those animals that for one reason or another has a strong taboo with some when it regards hybridizing is strange to me personally when so many other animals are hybridized without so much as anyone even blinking an eye in comparison. A good breeder can in fact breed any trait into his line and have it breed true after a few generations. Breeding out the unwanted genes can also be done with a rudimentary understanding of genetics and an eye for detail.
 

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