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Feeders Any and all issues about raising rats, mice, or anything else that you feed your cornsnakes.

"Healthy" Feeder Food - Recipe!
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:29 PM   #1
Green Oasis Reptiles
"Healthy" Feeder Food - Recipe!

Okay, I've never been an advocate of "lab blocks"...yes, I know, some science student who did his thesis on the dietary requirements of lab rodents probably made a fortune selling his ideal "formula" to the companies that produce the stuff, and yes, it probably covers all the bases as far as the nutritional health of the intended prey items. But...how BORING must it be (and I daresay, not very healthy at all) to consume nothing but a "ration" block all the time? Rodents need a variety of healthy foods! Even (or more appropriately "especially") if they are intended to be food for OTHER animals.

So, in doing my OWN research into the subject of rodent diet, I came up with a "recipe" that I have been using with great success for my feeder/breeders for quite some time now. In the interest of community, I present it here to you, because, as I noted another user quoting in another thread, "healthy feeders = healthy snakes" ...that has been my motto since I started the whole "feeder breeding" operation!

The recipe is:
4 parts (Iams) puppy food
3 parts "songbird" wild bird food
1 part chicken scratch
1/2 part puffed rice, cracker crumbs, dog biscuits, etc.

Now a bit more on the parts:
Iams Puppy Food: I use Iams puppy food because I found that it has the best ingredients & protein ratio (I raise a lot of hairless rats & they need more protein to keep their body temp up). This part is the main bulk of the food, so you want it to be the best. Iams puppy food also contains NO RED DYE! It is VERY important that if you're varying the brands or types of foods you use to *never* use anything containing red dye in it (some parrot foods have little "kibble" pieces that are suspect). It will not harm the rodents you feed it to, but it will build up in the reptiles' kidneys/liver and produce a toxic effect eventually, which could be their demise. Since I feed mostly rats/hairless rats, I use 4 parts of this ingredient, but if you're feeding mice or ASFs, they prefer more grain, so, they will do better with only 3 parts of this (that's good, because it's not cheap!) ;^)
"Songbird" Wild Bird Food: I found this at "Buy Me Crap"-Mart. It has just the right proportion of black sunflower seeds, peanuts, cracked corn, millet, sorghum & dried fruits. I haven't found any other like it, so I just continue to use this. I might post a pic of it later, for ease of locating, but I'll have to buy more first!
Chicken Scratch: We also have chickens, so, I use some of their food to "round out" the rats' food with more grains (wheat, millet, more corn, etc) I suppose if chicken scratch wasn't available, you could either leave this part out, or substitute a more "seedy" bird food for it (plenty of millet, sorghum, cracked corn, wheat, etc)
Puffed Rice: Again, from "Buy Me Crap"-mart. This is really just for a "treat"...the rodents really like it, but sometimes I will also use cracker crumbs, crumbled stale bread or tortilla chips, old granola from a "health" kick...anything that's not overly processed or containing red dye (old cereal is good, so long as it's not anything like Froot Loops!) The point of this part is to just give them a "treat"...so, if you don't have anything to make up this part, it's fine to just skip it.
Mix this all up & feed one Tbsp per animal/day for rats, 1/2 Tbsp (or less!) per animal/day for mice, & 1/2 Tbsp (or less!) for ASFs. Don't overfeed! I realize that most people use racks with a "bin" for lab blocks...even when I FINALLY have racks, I'm still going to feed my mix in bowls. That's how much better I think it is! :^P
As far as cost...this mix costs me about $30 a month (or less) to feed 50+ rats. I'm sure you can probably feed them cheaper on lab blocks...I don't know...but, I like this mix...I know what's in it...and my rats love it too!
Oh, and another note: I also give my rats puppy biscuits every few days or so, to help with the need to gnaw...but they don't really *need" that...it's just something extra I do for them.

Good Luck! Never give up...Never surrender!
 
Old 02-03-2010, 12:31 PM   #2
Green Oasis Reptiles
Okay, after speaking with a friend in the business the other day, he says he's taken my recipe and omitted the dog food part & substitutes horse feed instead, which makes it a lot cheaper. (He says it contains the right amount of protein, etc.) I have thought about using horse feed myself, but I have no idea what the differences are in the stuff...I know there are different kinds of horse feed. When I asked him, he couldn't give me a name, per se, but said that the blocks (in the horse feed) do not fall in thru the 1/2" grate of the breeder racks (the seed does, but that's fine).
He also mentioned that he's started using compressed pine pellets for the bedding, because you don't have to use as much, they expand when they get wet & soak up urine really well (thereby cutting down the ammonia smell). He uses it in all of his racks, but puts a bit of shavings in with the mommas that are pregnant/nursing so that they have soft stuff for the babies. (I believe he says that he puts it into the back 1/4-1/3 of the rack tub for the mommas.)
Anywho, just thought I would mention that to anyone that is interested!
 
Old 02-03-2010, 06:06 PM   #3
Arpolis
Hey man Thanks for the great read. I have been thinking about breeding my own feeders for a bit but my wife is only starting to warm up to the idea. "She thinks they are so cute and if we raise them she may not be able to let me feed them to the snakes lol". I will definitely book mark this thread and check back to it if I ever do start my own feeder colony. "Probably when my snakes get bigger; more of them are around and the price for feeders get steep." I am also glad to see a fellow Okee around on the site. I have a lot of friends in Claremore and visit there frequently. Welcome to the site!
 
Old 02-03-2010, 06:20 PM   #4
insomniac101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Oasis Reptiles View Post
I noted another user quoting in another thread, "healthy feeders = healthy snakes"
Guilty as charged!

Thank you very much for posting this. I don't raise my own feeders right now, but would like to in the future. Sounds like you've put a lot of time and money into perfecting this diet, and we greatly appreciate the info!

Kathy
 
Old 02-03-2010, 06:36 PM   #5
groomingdiva
Thanks for the info. My friend that also breeds hairless rats said not to use anything with dried corn. I have parrots also, so I give mine some of their seed and pick out the corn, but if you haven't had problems with it, then I will give it a try. LIke the mix.
 
Old 02-03-2010, 07:19 PM   #6
Green Oasis Reptiles
Well, actually, my mix contains very little corn (honestly, the rats don't eat it very much anyway).
I try to pay attention to what the rats are eating most and adjust the diet accordingly, which is why I know that they LOVE the sunflower seeds! Usually, they pick out either sunflower seeds or puppy food first & everything else they pick at later.
I just got some more ingrediets, so I think I will take a few pics & post later, so you guys can SEE what it should look like.
But for now...I need to feed the human children!

Take care!
 
Old 02-03-2010, 07:41 PM   #7
Green Oasis Reptiles
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arpolis View Post
Hey man Thanks for the great read. I have been thinking about breeding my own feeders for a bit but my wife is only starting to warm up to the idea. "She thinks they are so cute and if we raise them she may not be able to let me feed them to the snakes lol". I will definitely book mark this thread and check back to it if I ever do start my own feeder colony. "Probably when my snakes get bigger; more of them are around and the price for feeders get steep." I am also glad to see a fellow Okee around on the site. I have a lot of friends in Claremore and visit there frequently. Welcome to the site!
Cool! Sometimes I've wondered if hubby and I are the only Okies that "dig" snakes around here!
Yeah, it's kinda' hard sometimes to feed those cute little furries to the snakes, but...that IS the whole idea, so...just gotta' deal with it sometimes! I feel better about feeding off mice, but that's because I don't LIKE mice! ;^) (Hence why we don't breed mice anymore.)
You just have to learn to separate your "feeder" rats from your "pet" rats in your mind. It's perfectly fine to keep some as pets (my two daughters have some for pets as well as one I keep), but you don't want to go around adopting them all!
 
Old 12-22-2010, 03:39 PM   #8
Green Oasis Reptiles
Been a LONG time since I've been on here! TOO LONG! But I am back with a vengeance. I have stopped using this mix...not because it was bad, per se, but because I noticed that my breeders were almost TOO fat. Almost. That, and it was a bit annoying to have to mix up the mix, get seeds & stuff EVERYWHERE while the toddler was pestering me to let her "help" (hence the seeds everywhere!)
I have been using THIS stuff for awhile now, and while it costs about 50% more, it seems to do just fine for them...I occasionally still mix it with dog food, and I really want to try a mix of the blocks, seed, dog food & horse feed (once I find the right type), but I am going to have to wait until I have some more "business" for that! Right now, it's just easier to use the blocks. Poor ratties!
 
Old 12-22-2010, 04:03 PM   #9
ShenziSixaxis
Quote:
Now a bit more on the parts:
Iams Puppy Food: I use Iams puppy food because I found that it has the best ingredients & protein ratio (I raise a lot of hairless rats & they need more protein to keep their body temp up). This part is the main bulk of the food, so you want it to be the best. Iams puppy food also contains NO RED DYE! It is VERY important that if you're varying the brands or types of foods you use to *never* use anything containing red dye in it (some parrot foods have little "kibble" pieces that are suspect). It will not harm the rodents you feed it to, but it will build up in the reptiles' kidneys/liver and produce a toxic effect eventually, which could be their demise. Since I feed mostly rats/hairless rats, I use 4 parts of this ingredient, but if you're feeding mice or ASFs, they prefer more grain, so, they will do better with only 3 parts of this (that's good, because it's not cheap!) ;^)
Red dye causes cancer, nuff said. Iams does have a lot of crap in it (not just to dogs), as it's a Walmart brand. Last I checked, it had dyes and such. Might have been purina though.
But again, I would say, even for a hairless rat, it would have way too much protein and fat for rats, similar to cat food, to be the main staple.

Quote:
"Songbird" Wild Bird Food: I found this at "Buy Me Crap"-Mart. It has just the right proportion of black sunflower seeds, peanuts, cracked corn, millet, sorghum & dried fruits. I haven't found any other like it, so I just continue to use this. I might post a pic of it later, for ease of locating, but I'll have to buy more first!
Post a pic. I can't find anything like this. I know that the seeds and peanuts would offer a lot of fat, but I think the other things would even it out. No problem here except that I want it!

Quote:
Chicken Scratch: We also have chickens, so, I use some of their food to "round out" the rats' food with more grains (wheat, millet, more corn, etc) I suppose if chicken scratch wasn't available, you could either leave this part out, or substitute a more "seedy" bird food for it (plenty of millet, sorghum, cracked corn, wheat, etc)
Isn't this like a sand? And you wouldn't substitute it for fatty bird seeds.

Quote:
Puffed Rice: Again, from "Buy Me Crap"-mart. This is really just for a "treat"...the rodents really like it, but sometimes I will also use cracker crumbs, crumbled stale bread or tortilla chips, old granola from a "health" kick...anything that's not overly processed or containing red dye (old cereal is good, so long as it's not anything like Froot Loops!) The point of this part is to just give them a "treat"...so, if you don't have anything to make up this part, it's fine to just skip it.
Treats? My treats are table scraps/doggy bags from restaurants, and the occasional bite of whatever I'm eating.

Quote:
Mix this all up & feed one Tbsp per animal/day for rats, 1/2 Tbsp (or less!) per animal/day for mice, & 1/2 Tbsp (or less!) for ASFs. Don't overfeed! I realize that most people use racks with a "bin" for lab blocks...even when I FINALLY have racks, I'm still going to feed my mix in bowls. That's how much better I think it is! :^P
The bin is called a hopper. And I don't even use a bowl; it gets kicked out. I put timothy hay down, then the food. The rats, especially the weaners that still have their eyes closed, chew on it.
And someone on BP.net figured that rats need about 5 grams of food everyday for every 100 grams of weight. I don't really know, so I just put down a bunch of food every day or so, and I know if they need more based on how much I gave by eye-balling it, and by the way they act if I bring a smelly food into my room.
Rodents do not naturally over eat, so if it's all balanced, you will have no problems.

Quote:
As far as cost...this mix costs me about $30 a month (or less) to feed 50+ rats. I'm sure you can probably feed them cheaper on lab blocks...I don't know...but, I like this mix...I know what's in it...and my rats love it too!
Oh, and another note: I also give my rats puppy biscuits every few days or so, to help with the need to gnaw...but they don't really *need" that...it's just something extra I do for them.
I don't have 50 rats, but I'd say you're doing pretty bad on the cheap part of breeding. If I was spending 30 bucks a month on anything less than 100 breeders, I'd just BUY frozen rats.



I dunno, I wouldn't do this, but if you have breeders that are doing very well, more power to you.


Btw, I don't feed a lab block...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Oasis Reptiles View Post
Okay, after speaking with a friend in the business the other day, he says he's taken my recipe and omitted the dog food part & substitutes horse feed instead, which makes it a lot cheaper. (He says it contains the right amount of protein, etc.) I have thought about using horse feed myself, but I have no idea what the differences are in the stuff...I know there are different kinds of horse feed. When I asked him, he couldn't give me a name, per se, but said that the blocks (in the horse feed) do not fall in thru the 1/2" grate of the breeder racks (the seed does, but that's fine).
He also mentioned that he's started using compressed pine pellets for the bedding, because you don't have to use as much, they expand when they get wet & soak up urine really well (thereby cutting down the ammonia smell). He uses it in all of his racks, but puts a bit of shavings in with the mommas that are pregnant/nursing so that they have soft stuff for the babies. (I believe he says that he puts it into the back 1/4-1/3 of the rack tub for the mommas.)
Anywho, just thought I would mention that to anyone that is interested!
Horses are herbivores and a prey animal in the wild, so horse food is all plant material (...or should be). I should try that.

I don't use pine PERIOD. I also don't use pellets because it seems they're not best for rats from what I've read, but no pine. Ever. I've got rats that were on soft wood before that have RIs still, and that was 3 months ago.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Oasis Reptiles View Post
Been a LONG time since I've been on here! TOO LONG! But I am back with a vengeance. I have stopped using this mix...not because it was bad, per se, but because I noticed that my breeders were almost TOO fat. Almost. That, and it was a bit annoying to have to mix up the mix, get seeds & stuff EVERYWHERE while the toddler was pestering me to let her "help" (hence the seeds everywhere!)
I have been using THIS stuff for awhile now, and while it costs about 50% more, it seems to do just fine for them...I occasionally still mix it with dog food, and I really want to try a mix of the blocks, seed, dog food & horse feed (once I find the right type), but I am going to have to wait until I have some more "business" for that! Right now, it's just easier to use the blocks. Poor ratties!
I KNEW IT.


If you want to know what I use for my rats, feel free to shoot me a PM.
 
Old 12-22-2010, 04:43 PM   #10
Green Oasis Reptiles
Such negativity so close to Christmas...I guess you're not a fan.

By my research & survey of other "feeder breeders", $30 is a good cost for 50 breeder rats. These guys save me a good $100+ a month for frozen feeders, so spending $30-45 on their food is nothing comparatively speaking. I probably COULD feed them cheaper...but their food would then not be as healthy.
Yes, I realize that Iams has a lot of fat...especially on the puppy food end. When I noticed my rats seemed overly fat, I switched to Iams "weight control" which still has a good amount of protein, but a lot less fat...this seems to be a better use of the dog food portion of the mix. Sorry I didn't post that at the time that I did it. Iams does not have red dye...I've checked...and Walmart is not the only place that sells Iams, so it is not a "Walmart-exclusive brand".
Chicken scratch is grains...you're thinking of "grit" which is...well, gritty (ground oyster shell). Chicken scratch is mostly millet, sorghum, wheat berries, cracked corn...you know, grain!
As mentioned before, hairless rats need more protein because they must expend more energy to maintain the correct body temperature, since they have no fur for insulation. Higher fat content will not necessarily harm them either, but I don't like having little butterballs waddling around. It's not good for the breeding females. (Although, incidentally, I have not had any problems with my hairless girls failing to lactate.)
Another part of the reason I use the Native Earth blocks is because I did more research into lab blocks (because I was thinking of supplementing MY mix with them), and while most lab blocks aren't the healthiest, Native Earth has the best ratio of all the different ingredients, no corn, AND contains no copper (which is also harmful to them, the reptiles and anything else you might feed it to when it builds up in the system)...copper is used as a preservative and is even found in the Iams (which is why I was trying to get away from it in the first place). I had noticed I was having severe eye problems with my ASFs which I think was related to the copper content of the dog food. I give the ASFs ONLY blocks now, and they have had much less eye problems.
There are certain animal feeds that do not contain copper, but I am still researching them for use in the rat mixes. Until I have the money to experiment more, I will have to "settle" for the Native Earth blocks, though.
Breeding animals should be a constant learning experience, and in my 17 years of breeding rats, I am still constantly learning & changing the way I do things for the benefit of the animals.
I, for one, have not had problems with respiratory infections with my rats from using pine shavings. Ever. That is not to say that I haven't had rats with RIs. In fact, my bottle-fed boy died of one a few months ago, but this was entirely due to having him in a too-cold room (power went out for a few days in early spring) for too long, and he was already weak from having been a "survivor". He lived a good year or so, but, being bottle-fed and not receiving immunities from his momma cost him his health and he was always on the scrawny side. He was also a hairless, named "Rocky"...because of being a little fighter. (I was bottle-feeding 5 babies of the same litter...every two hours, only he survived.) Aside from this guy, there has been maybe one other rat with an RI in all of my years of breeding them, and aside from one or two months of using alternative beddings (yes, I went on "kicks" of using something else because I heard pine was bad), they have all been on pine...all the time...for generations.
Thank you for your response. I appreciate the attempt, and I'm definitely not trying to be a Know-it-all...but I like the way I have things set up now, so I will probably just stick with it for awhile. As I said, though, I am constantly researching & learning, so...it may very well be that I come back in another month or two and have a different stance on some things.
 

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