Imprinting Scent on Captive-Bred Eggs?

tyflier said:

But, as you mentioned, most of that has already been done using completely "off base" scents(such as the strawberries), and shown, at least moderately scientifically, to be effective in imprinting the animal to accept the food scent from the egg.

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In alligators and kingsnakes not corns . . . there could be a difference. Probably not, but you'd be best guarding against it by testing it.

tyflier said:

I was under the impression(since next spring will my first actual foray into breeding) that cornsnakes can often be difficult, because they instinctually trigger on anoles and other small lizards,

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My experience has been to the contrary. Any nonfeeders I have personally worked with have not reacted any differently to lizard scent (rubbed on a live lizard) or juice (lizard maker) as compared to other methods such as braining, rat scent, etc. More often than not, my nonfeeders end up as food.

tyflier said:

What am I, as a small-time breeder and seller of cornsnakes, going to do with 4-6 snakes that don't want to eat anything but lizards?

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Condemn my devilish ways, but feed them to your kingsnakes if they refuse pinkies down the road. The alligator report on strawberry scent didn't say if they refused their normal food it stated they preferred the strawberry scented offerings.

tyflier said:

I seriously hope that doesn't cause you to think less of me, or to think less of my starting this topic.

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Think less of you for politely engaging in discussion over the appropriate methods to run an experiment??!! Not in my lifetime. Just trying to help you out so you can be sure to cover all the angles. Since it sounds as though you're going to actually put this through it's paces, I'd like to see your end results be more valuable and have more meaning, and not get second guessed or ripped apart by others as not being broad, or scientific, enough.

D80

Drizzt80 said:

Condemn my devilish ways, but feed them to your kingsnakes if they refuse pinkies down the road. The alligator report on strawberry scent didn't say if they refused their normal food it stated they preferred the strawberry scented offerings.

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Yes that is certainly an option, and one I may tackle in future years. However...I only plan on one, maybe two clutches next spring. And I plan on having a good number of holdbacks. Unfortunately...I don't think I can afford to "waste" any hatchlings on experimentation. Perhaps future breedings will be fruitful enough that I can apply the full "scientific method" to this madness...but probably not in my first season.

Think less of you for politely engaging in discussion over the appropriate methods to run an experiment??!! Not in my lifetime. Just trying to help you out so you can be sure to cover all the angles. Since it sounds as though you're going to actually put this through it's paces, I'd like to see your end results be more valuable and have more meaning, and not get second guessed or ripped apart by others as not being broad, or scientific, enough.

D80

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Well...as I said...IF this "experiment" proves beneficial to other breeders...so be it. If it proves even remotely interesting to other breeders...so be it. Ultimately...that is not my goal. My goal is, as I stated, to be able to hatch difficult kingsnakes and provide a fairly quick and easy turn-around by imprinting them with mouse scent straight from the egg. Ultimately...if I hatch 10 greybands, and 7 of them take pinkies straight from the egg without scenting, enticing, or "mucking around" with them for several months to get them to eat...my "experiment" is successful.

I really couldn't care less if "scientific minds" or the "scientific community" approves of my methods or my manner of data acquisition. If it works for me...it works for me. I'm not quite so altruistic as I would LIKE to be. If others find my "experiment" useful enough to follow up or use the information...I am that much more successful. I will post my "results" for those that are interested...but I won't kid myself into thinking that this is going to make some sort of "name" for me in herpetoculture. I have no delusions of becoming the next Kathy Love, Don Soderberg, or Rich Zuchowski. I'll not be that important to the culture as a whole, and can't possibly delude myself into thinking that I might have that much of an impact, no matter how careful I am in recording and controlling this "experiment"...though I certainly do appreciate the input.

To be quite honest...it is very easily something I could persue further down the road, when I have more hatchlings "to spare", and thoroughly control all of the variables. But even more than that...I hope others find something, even if only from the words being typed in this topic, that is interesting enough to perform their OWN experiments. Afterall...it doesn't hurt to try. What's the worst that could happen? You still have trouble getting picky kings to eat pinkies? That's not so bad....

But as I said...I really appreciate your input, and I especially appreciate you helping me to protect my "reputation". I just don't think my reputation is now, nor ever will be, quite so important as to be THAT impactive to this hobby of ours. It would be nice but...I don't think so....
:cheers:

I have to say I am enjoying this discussion very much! Lots of info and no back biting... its great to see some really great ideas being talked about

I have another question though :bang: well, we all know kinda how much a dead mouse can stink after a couple days.... my question is this... After putting some drops into the container or onto the eggs... after a couple days in the incubator at 80-84 temps and humidity..... wont it smell really bad?? I mean that is kinda what I was thinking.. dead mouse is a dead mouse weither it is whole or as juice. I would be concerned of the smell and the bacterial growth that may happen?? Maybe something could be done to help that?? Like maybe putting the juice in a smaller container like a condiment cup so that the smell is in the container and goes through the wall of the egg but yet can be taken out and cleaned everyday??

If this scenting like this can work... it would be so great!! I had a few non-feeders plus I bought some too this year. All corns though. So I am very interested in the out come... I just wouldnt wanna open my incubator or egg containers and smell rotten mouse... I would gag LOL

If someone wants to take the data and organize it (Brent? Tyflier?) with others, I'll take a clutch of Cornsnakes, a clutch of Hognose and maybe a clutch of Ball Pythons and do this experiment. I think it's pretty interesting and would like to see the results.

If someone could figure out what to do with live bearers, I'd do a litter of boas as well.

Very interesting! Thanks for starting the discussion.

Seems like I may remember this discussion (on this forum? not sure...) a few years ago and thought it was interesting then. But I don't remember anyone actually following through and experimenting with it. I had thought about it, and then forgot about it. Always so much to do, so little time...

I also won't get around to doing any very scientific experiments. But I have some clutches of caramel / butter / golddust that are often not great pink feeders. Maybe I will have a go on some of those.

Great discussion! I'd be very interested in the results of anyone who tries this and am considering trying it myself - though the clutches I'd try it on would be kings not corns. (So far, (crosses fingers) all my corn hatchlings have mainly been good feeders.)

Jenn

blckkat said:

If someone wants to take the data and organize it (Brent? Tyflier?) with others, I'll take a clutch of Cornsnakes, a clutch of Hognose and maybe a clutch of Ball Pythons and do this experiment. I think it's pretty interesting and would like to see the results.

If someone could figure out what to do with live bearers, I'd do a litter of boas as well.

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If you send me the pertinent information(clutch size, species, control numbers vs. test subjects, method of scenting, and scent used...along with relative results), I will certainly include the information in the "results" post.

But please don't expect me to be able to write up a biological or "scientific research paper" on any data provided. I only plan to track my reults and make an appropriate post listing what I find. Scientific, I ain't. Curious, I am. Accepting of other people's help and input? Absolutely, and necessarily.

I wonder if with non feeders, rubbing a pinkie on the plastic tub they were incubated in (mine always have quite a strong plastic smell) or rubbing them in the incubation medium, would evoke a response.

Yes, I know this is an older thread, but I had sent an e-mail to myself containing a link to this thread as a reminder to try imprint scenting a few clutches. I'm not to that point yet as my pairs are still currently mating, but I know that some of you already have eggs laid so I figured this deserved a bump. If need be, I'll bump it again when it's time for me to actually try this.

Very cool Susan,
I forgot about this thread. I had a few problem feeders in one of our clutches last year. I will definitely be trying to prove this theory. I think it has a very good chance of working. Let the testing/scenting begin. Again, thanks for the reminder.
Jay

Susan said:

If need be, I'll bump it again when it's time for me to actually try this.

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Good call! I know I'll try and remember to try it out on a couple of clutches. Which ones?!?!


D80

I plan on trying it with my grayband clutch(es) this year. If it works, it would be a godsend. Trying to get these buggers to switch from lizards to mice is a royal PIA!!

Just a bump for anyone who is interested.
I have my first clutch of grayband eggs on the ground now and plan on trying this with them and hopefully a 2nd clutch as well.
I will be scenting all of the eggs this year as I found out last year just how difficult these guys can be to switch off of lizards. I still have last years hatchlings - eating and growing well - on lizards. It is getting a little ridiculous at this point so if I can do anything to change that outcome this year - you better believe I am going to give it a shot!

How will you be scenting them?? I know with a mice slushy but will you be putting it directly on the eggs or just in the container or how?

Cat_Eyed_Lady said:

How will you be scenting them?? I know with a mice slushy but will you be putting it directly on the eggs or just in the container or how?

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I will be putting it directly on the eggs. Just a small spot on the top of each egg.

The reason I asked is because of the concern I have for the smell. lol At first it probably wouldnt be too bad but after abit?? Dead mouse is still dead mouse and in a warm place... well I was just curious if after abit the smell would be too strong or something. I am anxious to hear your results on that and if it helps them to eat mice instead of lizards

Absolutely fascinating topic. so in theory I could get my corns to eat say: Chocolate ice cream? heh heh, just kidding. Please keep us posted on the results. Kyle

Since the thread has been updated...anyone have updates who have actually tried this method?

So by general concensus, how far along in development would one start scenting? How often are we going to scent? Ie. Daily? E.O.D.? I wonder if the water from defrosting mice, might just be enough to scent with...

Interesting!

Rebecca

MohrSnakes said:

Since the thread has been updated...anyone have updates who have actually tried this method?

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My grayband eggs were just laid yesterday. From the articles quoted here it looks like they have done the scenting the last two weeks of incubation so I have some time before I start.

I will be following pretty much what the article stated and putting the scent on daily during those last two weeks.

I am really not looking forward to making a mouse slushie - but if it works - then it will be worth it!