Cohabbing Misfortunes.

Blutengel said:

I really respect people who can find joy in keeping a smaller amount of corns in a couple of naturalistic displays which need a load of time to set up and maintain. Those are the ultimate snake keepers to me. I am not like that, as most snake keepers are not like that. However, I, as most snake keepers over here do, still want my snakes to be as happy and healthy as they can be within the environment I create for them. Both rack keepers and co-habbers fail compared to the ultimate snake keeper type mentioned above.

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Completely agree!

So this is an older thread, however, I went to the petstore today (not naming names but there's a few of these reptile stores in CO.. hmm). I was looking into their baby corn cage and noticed one extraordinarily fat hatchling. My first thought was that they had fed the hatching two large fuzzies. I looked a bit closer and could see the clear coils of another snake INSIDE the baby. I pointed him out to my boyfriend and said "This is why my snakes don't live together." I went to the counter to purchase my crickets for the lizard and made a comment of "Nice cannibal corn snake." And the guy thought I was joking! I told him that the hatchlings were eating each other and two other employees went to look and began to freak out. They removed the other hatchlings and put them in a different set up. Apparently the employees had never ever heard of corns eating each other. >.> The only thing they did know was that he was probably going to die from eating such a big meal. Then they laughed it off and said "Those snakes are so skinny, no wonder they're eating each other!" >.>

That is horrible Ali! I can't believe the workers would say that. (well, yes, I can).

I ran across another pic of a snake eating itself and it was different than the one I saw before. It must happen? Probably so extremely rare but I wonder how they get the snakes tail out of it's mouth or if they can?

I probably wouldn't buy any animal from a pet store, but honestly, of the maybe 5 Petcos/Petsmarts I've been to, all of their baby corns have been one snake to one enclosure. And although I've never asked what they're feeding them, there are never any crickets in the cages with them.

hypnoctopus said:

I probably wouldn't buy any animal from a pet store, but honestly, of the maybe 5 Petcos/Petsmarts I've been to, all of their baby corns have been one snake to one enclosure.

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I don't know what what Petco you're going to, everyone I've been to has at least 4-5 hatchlings in a tank together. Checked the other day at my local Petco and I counted 9. Most were just heads sticking out of the tanbark they have in there for substrate, who know how many others were in there that I couldn't see. I really don't see the point of cramming that many in there when they have 3-4 empty tanks at any given time. and Chico is a small town, there is no way they'll sell that many in any reasonable amount of time.

I was at an expo a few weeks ago and one of the vendors had a deli with two hatchling corns in it... well, had. One of them was in the process of eating the other. All the guy had to say was that it was strange they were eating each other because only lavender corns do that apparently (these were two normals). Ummm ok? He was obviously clueless.

:roflmao:I can not believe that.:roflmao:

I was only in there to snoop around to see what they had and pick up some crickets. I'll never get a reptile from them, the last time I was in there they had baby frilled lizards in a beardie set up and the manager told me they could live in a 55 gallon tank. *facepalm* They've also told friends of mine to keep their ball pythons on cedar. Once again, I'm not naming names, but I've gotten better advice from Petsmart and Petco. I hope the little cannibal is going to survive, though he may have already been dead by the time I found him.

Pretty much all the chain pet shops in my area co-hab. The only one that doesn't is Pet Supplies Plus, which is where I got my first snake from.

Yep, I have paid $50 for shipping for two snakes. It was a big box too, but when I opened it up they shared a small deli cup. I was very up set by it because the box was so big it could have fit several deli cups. There was no need for it. I got lucky and the two have done fine (separated now of course).

There are so many reasons not to co-hab and none I can think of to do it. It's purely for the human and not the snake. I've hunted snakes in the wild for a very long time and I've never found more than one at a time. Rattlesnakes den up for winter and then move on in the spring. They come together to mate in the fall before hibernating. Corns come together in the spring once they are out of hibernation, garters come together for breeding and then you won't find a pair together following that. In Europe they co-hab. I have to think it's because it's what someone told them to do so they do it. England has only a few native species of snake and I'm sure that they don't live in groups. If nothing else, spread of disease should turn people off of keeping multiple snakes together. Even if you have a large heat area in your cage with multiple hides, I guarantee the temperatures are not the same in each hide. They are sharing what to them is ideal temperature. Zoos tend to co-habitate because they have limited space to display a lot of species. Doesn't make it good for the snakes. They also tend to have HUGE display areas not just small cages like most of us have. I keep large naturalistic cages and every snake has a separate cage. I will not sell a baby to someone who is going to co-habitate..I think it's that bad for the animal. If you can find me a species that is routinely found together in the wild all the time, please let us know. For all the field herping I've done, I've yet to see it and I've never found more than one snake under a hiding area...not even two different species. I'm sure people co-habitate and don't seem to have any problems. I remember years ago someone had posted about how they had been keeping two corns together that seemed to be doing fine, but they decided to give them each a separate cage. The change in the one snake after being placed by itself was dramatic. It's feeding habits improved, it was more active and it generally began thriving better. They did not realize how stressed the animal was until it wasn't anymore. What seemed to be fine really wasn't although there weren't overt signs of distress. Personally I don't think the thread will change minds...maybe...but those who feel that co-habitating is great will continue to do so and those that don't will find this thread justifies the reasons. I could do the same for quarantine. Some people do, some don't but I can tell you horror stories about people who have had disaster when they didn't. This thread might help new owners make a decision one way or another though.

The petco here in my town actually has it on the cornsnake cage that they can be kept together without any problems. All the "reptile experts" there are adamant about being able to cohab cornsnakes. It wasn't until I found this forum that I learned of the risks involved. I am in the process of separating the two that I brought home two weeks ago. I have the second tank, but I am waiting on my second uth and thermostat to get here from amazon. I have to admit though I would have never have guessed that they prefer to be alone, had I not learned it here. My two babies are always curled up together, and I have them in a 20 gallon long with plenty of hides. After reading all the horror stories here though, I'm totally paranoid now! My order should be here Tuesday so hopefully nothing happens between now and then.

Yep, a lot of people believe that them curling up is them cuddling, but it is a form of competition that could lead to all sorts of nasties! Trust me, they'll be so much happier when the rest of your stuff comes in and they live separately!

They do look like they enjoy each other, but I came here and found out quickly that it's a bad idea.

Why is it that because snakes are rarely found together in the wild, people assume that they would feel horrible being together? I have not ever witnessed a fight for a spot in my vivs, or snakes being chased or being spooked out, would that not be expected to happen if they really hate being at the same spot together? Ok, they don't feel the need to be together in the wild, that's obvious but that does not 100% sure mean they hate being together in one enclosure/spot. I refuse to believe that co-habbed snakes really need to be in the same spot at the same moment all the time, yet they do not because they hate to be together in one spot. Some are not fed at the same time so why would their wiring tell them to go look for a certain temperature at the same time? From experience I think that most corns just don't care, but some do. If I find that a co-habbed corn skips meals or just does not grow as fast as the regular corn, I separate it to see if that makes it eat or grow better. If so, I won't co-hab it again. I have a very skittish corn, that I expect to not like being co-habbed, also if I have to take her out, it would stress out the other corn so I don't co-hab her. Also, most males are separated after one of them bred for the first time since from that moment they show dominating behavior if being put together. But as long as they are not bred, they are fine together.

Here in Europe people co-hab because they see others do it without problems. And you know what, I have heared so many cases of really uneducated people co-habbing pairs (or more snakes) finding clutches year after year and no problems what so ever with egg binding and such. Sometimes I see ads mentioning 3 year old co-habbed pairs having had clutches 2 years in a row... no problems at all... and many of them don't even look like they are 3 years old anyway size wise or they are humongous because they are over fed. Yet we as educated breeders waiting for appropiate size and such are confronted with egg binding more than we would expect. That does frustrate me to be honest, since most people over here are educated in corn care and try to make the best decisions and take precautions to prevent problems.

For me a reason to co-hab, is to be able to keep more snakes, indeed. Other breeders, like most American breeders, choose to put them in racks in drawers without anything to climb on, sometimes even without a hide. Some even minimize the floor surface to be able to keep more snakes, below what I consider reasonable. My co-habbed snakes have way more floor space than many rack kept corns and can climb stuff, which many actually do, especially juveniles. Further I have noticed that many of my corns, including some co-habbed ones, hang out behind the glass a lot, looking at the world. Somehow they seem to appreciate that, e.g. it might be good for them (stimulating?). In racks they can't do that. What is the best way to keep more snakes? I think that question is more fair to ask than: why is co-habbing worse than not co-habbing? Of course there are keepers who do not co-hab and do not put hem in racks, and have spacious vivs, which undoubtedly are the best type of keeper, of course. Yet, most of the keepers are not like that.

Maybe people have to accept that some people prefer co-habbing (in larger vivs) above (small) racks and others prefer (small) racks without anything to climb on or anything stimulating going on.

I still wonder why I see some American breeders keeping hatchlings together until they shed while most cases of cannibalism occur in young hatchlings? I have mentioned this multiple times in discussions about this topic but nobody ever said; you are right, that is weird. Personally I co-hab but not until they are large enough to be moved to a viv, which is usually when they are about half a year old, to avoid co-habbing during the period when cannibalism is most likely to appear.

I hope some people which are very much against co-habbing are willing to seriously react to the above, since I have posted this view on the discussion many times but never had anybody do that, though I do think I have some interesting questions, like why I don't see any fight or such going on between co-habbed snakes. Even people who dare to call co-habbing animal abuse, have nothing factual or scientifical to prove their case, only some examples from their own experiences, showing that snakes do better when separated and their logic, which in my opinion is just personal logic, but not facts or science. I do agree some do better when separated, but for any case they present telling a snake does better when separated, I can put multiple showing that co-habbed snakes thrive, or cases in which non co-habbed snakes do have problems. I have co-habbed yearlings twice the size most American yearlings have, I was told many times that German and Dutch juveniles are way large... yet most of us co-hab. Really easy to make up some logic that co-habbing stimulates them to grow larger... but since I have not done any research, I don't dare to say so.

We have to realize that people see prove of what they think is true in everyday life, yet anyone with another opinion sees proves for maybe even the opposite view. Calling people animal abusers based on this biased look at keeping corns, is just not right. I don't call people keeping snakes in racks animal abusers, though I have as much cases and logic available to 'proof my case' if I choose to think they are facts. Let us except that all serious breeders/keepers attempt to do their best but have different views, so none of them should be called abusers or be bothered by people with a different view.

AliCat37 said:

Yep, a lot of people believe that them curling up is them cuddling, but it is a form of competition that could lead to all sorts of nasties! Trust me, they'll be so much happier when the rest of your stuff comes in and they live separately!

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Please show me some serious data to proof that.

Since you want the data, how about you set up the expiriment to create it? Cohab say... 20 pairs of corns, male+female and 20 pairs female+female and 20 pairs male+male in 20 gallon tanks and/or 30+ quart bins, and record weight each month and behaviour every day. Also have 20 males housed singly and 20 females housed singly. In three years, post the information. We'll see ya then.

If there's only ONE heat spot, the snakes are going to have to compete for access to it. If there's only one or two hides, the snakes are going to have to compete for access to them. Competition amongst reptiles is not going to look like competition amongst mammals or even birds.

Basically encouraging newbies to risk their snakes simply because *some* people have had okay experiences with cohabbing is unethical for the hobby.

Then why do you suppose one snake would eat the other?

I have read of that too many times. I would be horrible to have happen, for both snakes involved.

Someone here told me that some snakes were purchased at a show, send home together in a deli cup and on the drive home, one ate the other.

I can't see why you would want to risk that happening. I do agree, to US, it seems like they are totally fine co-habbed UNTIL something goes wrong.

I'm not experienced but this is all what I have read here and I don't believe anyone would make up such horror stories. I'm sure that many snakes do live co-habbed without the misfortune of anything horrible, but I've decided it's not worth any risk to my snakes. And you'll just never know until something does happen, if you're lucky, it won't.

Shiari said:

Since you want the data, how about you set up the expiriment to create it? Cohab say... 20 pairs of corns, male+female and 20 pairs female+female and 20 pairs male+male in 20 gallon tanks and/or 30+ quart bins, and record weight each month and behaviour every day. Also have 20 males housed singly and 20 females housed singly. In three years, post the information. We'll see ya then.

If there's only ONE heat spot, the snakes are going to have to compete for access to it. If there's only one or two hides, the snakes are going to have to compete for access to them. Competition amongst reptiles is not going to look like competition amongst mammals or even birds.

Basically encouraging newbies to risk their snakes simply because *some* people have had okay experiences with cohabbing is unethical for the hobby.

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I do not encourage newbies, I only don't like that some people act like co-habbing is animal abuse without any data to support that. I don't feel the need to convince people that I am right, but many anti co-habbers do, if they want to impress me, they have to show me facts, not personal logic.
Actually I do have proof of many cases of co-habbing not gone wrong when it comes to cannibalism and pairs. Since it would be goofy to have a test group for that of snakes which are not co-habbed, I did do that part of the research. Of course, there is a tiny risk of cannibalism and problems with juvenile pregnancy involved, but since most of known cases happened to hatchlings, which I don't co-hab, and I do not put pairs together knowingly, I feel pretty safe about it.

Actually, I tell newby's about the risks and why many people are against it and I advice to get some experience with non co-habbed corns first and than decide if you want to co-hab. That's the best I can do in a country where they'll see people co-hab all the time. Why would they believe me if I'd be very fermly against it? They might think I'm exaggerating since I cannot provide them any data about it or tell about many cases of cannibalism or juvenile pregnancy's gone wrong. Where'd my credibility be? I do also tell them to not put pairs together for longer than until their second or even better their first breeding season and to put them back together if they want to when the female is large enough. And that co-habbing pairs can put much stress on the female during the breeding season, the same goes for males. You'd be surprised about the somewhat dissappointed looks on many of their faces, since they never thought about these things.

Again, no reaction to my opinion that co-habbing should be compared with racks instead of not co-habbing. I wonder if you use racks with drawers, Shiari?

By the way, I did have a disease in my collection a couple of years ago, when I did not co-hab since I had a rack (closed back, no room between shelves and sides) with drawers because I was told co-habbing is a very bad thing to do and I wanted more snakes. You know where all but one casualties (the first casualty) where housed? In the drawers... but the first to show symptoms actually was a non co-habbed male in a wooden viv, I still have no idea where it came from, since it did not start in the rack and I had not gotten a new snake recently, I did not even have the rack when the first snake started to show symptoms. Maybe the disease spreads faster in a rack with drawers? I am not implying anything, just showing how easily cause and effect can be made up applying 'logic'.

I know plenty of people who cohab with no problems.

I don't recommend it to newbies, but if someone who's got some experience in recognizing signs of stress, etc, I'm certainly not going to tell them that they're wrong in doing so.

That's a really good point about disease spreading faster in a rack system, it makes sense.

schnebbles said:

Then why do you suppose one snake would eat the other?

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Most expectedly because they think they are food, not because of competition. Snakes don't even kill and eat rodents nibbling them when left alone together for feeding purposes. So I really don't expect a corn to eat another corn so it can be at the spot it wants to be.