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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

View Poll Results: After how many generations of "pure" breeding would say a snake is pure corn?
As long as a snake looks like a corn and acts like a corn, it's pure to me 4 8.16%
After 2 generations 0 0%
After 5 generations 5 10.20%
After 10 generations 7 14.29%
After 15 generations 1 2.04%
After 20 generations 0 0%
After 25 generations or more (if more, specify which number in the thread) 2 4.08%
If a snake has any hybrid ancestor, no matter how many generations ago, it's still a hybrid. 30 61.22%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

Proposal regarding hybrids / pure corns
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:19 PM   #81
BloodyBaroness
Now that is an excellent example. No alternate bloodlines introduced, just simply selecting the best offspring with most desirable traits to propagate. What is really interesting how the ears, tail and fur all started to change over time as well.

Start with one thing and keep it that way. Don't muddy it up by adding what its not needed to achieve the goal.
 
Old 01-16-2013, 01:31 PM   #82
diamondlil
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyBaroness View Post
Now that is an excellent example. No alternate bloodlines introduced, just simply selecting the best offspring with most desirable traits to propagate. What is really interesting how the ears, tail and fur all started to change over time as well.

Start with one thing and keep it that way. Don't muddy it up by adding what its not needed to achieve the goal.
If there had been any hybridisation involved, the experiments would have been totally invalid. By keeping to the silver foxes and with rigorous scientific methodology the sought-after changes were interesting enough, the unexpected are just amazing. There are films of the foxes descended from the projects raised as pets and they are like the ultimate dog/cat/slinky combination, I WANT ONE!
 
Old 01-16-2013, 02:49 PM   #83
Carpe Serpentis
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyBaroness View Post
Which is why my comment of "Why not simply breed the most amiable tempered corns to other amiable tempered corns? There is ZERO reason to toss hybrids in there at all" makes a heck of a lot more sense contextually. Hybrids do not need to be included at all.
Very true, one can breed for temperament. The context however of stating that corn snakes used to not bite, musk, etc. in the way it was used lead me to infer he was referring to other snakes (hybrids). True, one could also possibly infer that breeders were simply breeding for bad temperaments, but what would be the motive to do this? Personally, I'd rather let the person speak for themselves though as to what they actually meant. Sure, I'll go out on a limb with you and say that there were multiple ways his comment could be interpreted. That does not mean the way I interpreted it was a wrong interpretation and at best one could argue that his point was not states clearly enough. At best, one could say his comment left room for some ambiguity. Perhaps it would be better to ask from clarification from the poster though and not assume you know any better than I do what he or she meant simply because you were astute enough to see another possible interpretation?
 
Old 01-16-2013, 02:58 PM   #84
BloodyBaroness
Quote:
Originally Posted by NiklasTyreso View Post
A good definition of a cornsnake should also specify behaviour patterns. I like corns as they used not to be agressive and they did not musk.
I think people that like to get bitten and musked on should breed other species than cornsnakes, just stop breeding such traits into cornsnakes.

I'm not against hybrids, I'm a 4 % neanderthal hybrid my self, but I like the good old nice tempered cornsnakes like they used to be.
Because he said " I like corns" not hybrids.

He also said "I think people that like to get bitten and musked on should breed other species than cornsnakes, just stop breeding such traits into cornsnakes"

Stop breeding such traits into corn snakes means simply that; stop breeding such traits into corn snakes. Not hybrids.

There is no room for ambiguity. It's pretty darn clear.

This right here solidifies the point, "but I like the good old nice tempered cornsnakes like they used to be."
 
Old 01-16-2013, 03:01 PM   #85
Carpe Serpentis
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyBaroness View Post
Now that is an excellent example. No alternate bloodlines introduced, just simply selecting the best offspring with most desirable traits to propagate. What is really interesting how the ears, tail and fur all started to change over time as well.

Start with one thing and keep it that way. Don't muddy it up by adding what its not needed to achieve the goal.
If one wanted to start with one thing and keep it that way one would not seek to create new and interesting morphs in my opinion. I think we see many who would like to breed for better temperaments, different morphs, etc. Many do like to see something new and exciting even when dealing with a limited gene pool. To see how far we can push the envelop with that limited gene pool is very exciting to many.
As for the comment, "Don't muddy it up by adding what is not needed to achieve that goal. I couldn't agree more with you. If something is not in that limited gene pool though it is up to those with goals of achieving that special something to introduce that gene from an outside gene pool or else give up on that goal. One might also think that perhaps it was easier to clean up the mud so to speak and achieve ones goals faster if another snake was brought into the mix. Either way, if the end result is eventually attained what does it matter if one had to do some cleaning along the way?
 
Old 01-16-2013, 03:05 PM   #86
Carpe Serpentis
The comment, I like corns as they used to be.... says it all to me. But then that is my opinion. I'd rather not think that breeders selected for bad temperaments or that breeders selected corn snakes to musk when they once did not. If we conclude that corn snakes never used to musk and take this statement at face value. We might also conclude that since corn snakes never used to musk that this trait may have been introduced and bred into corns or else one is left with the question... where did the first musk producing corn snake originate? Mind you, I am no expert on corns as many here are. I am simply stating that it was easy to interpret from a novice standpoint as I have done.
 
Old 01-16-2013, 03:06 PM   #87
BloodyBaroness
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe Serpentis View Post
If one wanted to start with one thing and keep it that way one would not seek to create new and interesting morphs in my opinion. I think we see many who would like to breed for better temperaments, different morphs, etc. Many do like to see something new and exciting even when dealing with a limited gene pool. To see how far we can push the envelop with that limited gene pool is very exciting to many.
As for the comment, "Don't muddy it up by adding what is not needed to achieve that goal. I couldn't agree more with you. If something is not in that limited gene pool though it is up to those with goals of achieving that special something to introduce that gene from an outside gene pool or else give up on that goal. One might also think that perhaps it was easier to clean up the mud so to speak and achieve ones goals faster if another snake was brought into the mix. Either way, if the end result is eventually attained what does it matter if one had to do some cleaning along the way?
You completely miss the point of that study.

Quote:
One might also think that perhaps it was easier to clean up the mud so to speak and achieve ones goals faster if another snake was brought into the mix.
It would be really hard to breed a snake to a silver fox.

No, adding in unknown and untested genes to a project like that is stupid. It undoes all of the selective breeding and gene development by adding in catalysts that can have unintended results. It would be completely pointless in a study like that.
 
Old 01-16-2013, 03:12 PM   #88
Carpe Serpentis
One need only look at the beautiful daylily hybrids that been created with diamond dusting, sharks tooth edges, etc... many of these hybrids were created out of multiple species and some even had to have their dna doubled by the use of colchicine to make them compatible with other species. Sure, there were beautiful and unintended consequences and novel repercussions that have resulted from such hybrids selling in the thousands of dollars for a single specimen. I can only dream of achieving some unexpected results like that with corn snake hybrids, but one will never know until one gets serious about hybridizing corns just what is possible and this may take many generations to uncover all of the possibilities that lay hidden as there are many hybrids that have not been attempted.
 
Old 01-16-2013, 03:14 PM   #89
MysticExotics
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't pretty much ALL snakes have the ability to musk?? I think it's a temperment thing, not an indication of being a hybrid.

I don't know of any breeders that intentioanlly bred for feisty traits, but more likely probably focused on the look of the snake, & the temperment happened to be not so nice. If that breeder is continually selecting for looks, & not caring about temperment, & the general consumer picks the snake for its looks, not temperment, then why would the breeder chance losing the visual beauty for the temperment?

That said, I know plenty of people look for good temperment, but most breeders are breeding for look first.

Temperment in Corns does not indicate the presence of hybridization. Okeetees are a locality, & they are one of the ones known for having sour temperments....see, no hybrid there.

We get that you like hybrids, & that's fine, for you.

But I have to agree with BB, you seem to interject hybrids into pretty much every conversation, & it gets tiresome.
 
Old 01-16-2013, 03:14 PM   #90
Carpe Serpentis
As for missing the point of the study, you assume too much.
 

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