Copperhead in the barn.........How do we handle this??!!?

ghosthousecorns said:

To let his age be a valid excuse for his actions does a big disservice to the other youngsters of this forum who are that age but do know how to be respectful to the 'elderly' and know how to hold their tongue.

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Thank you for this.

Jen I agree age is not an excuse to lack respect when responding to someone. But, you may notice David didn't throw the first blow in this case either. Either way 2 wrongs never make a right and adults should be acting like.....adults. Social skills are one of those things we hone more and more with age and while age doesn't give anyone a free pass to be nasty to someone- that works both ways. I get and understand people are just fed up with him but they don't have to go overboard with the blatant mean spirited comments all over this board. I guess for me it isn't about liking or disliking someone because the way we react to people should have nothing to do with whether we like them or not. Respect is free and by responding to him disrespectfully we are doing nothing to encourage mature behavior on his part.

I think when David crosses the line he should be called out matter of factly and punished when necessary by a mod or Rich himself instead of pubically crucified by us members.

danielle said:

I think when David crosses the line he should be called out matter of factly and punished when necessary by a mod or Rich himself instead of pubically crucified by us members.

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That trick has been done a few times.
And it dosen't work!! Plan and simple!!!
End of story!!


http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73069&highlight=snakemaster24&page=5

I know but bashing him doesn't help either come on you know that. The same thing can be said in very different ways with very different consequences. When we chose to let our irritation get the best of us and respond harshly we only encourage a similar response from him.

Below is a line.

danielle
_________________

Lennycorn


I have to said we will never agree on the subject.
But your still cute.

I love you Dave and you know it.....and you put me on top......I kinda like that

WOW! I really, really, tried to stay out of this one...

(and also the "devastating" thread, once it took a bad turn), but I have to state my opinion, too. I try to look at it from both sides, as factually as possible. And I do see that both sides are right to some degree.

It is going to be really long, but maybe I can get it all out in 1 (or a couple?) posts so it doesn't have to drag on like these threads have done.

I have got to say that it is good that this site wasn't here when I was 17! Although I wasn't nearly as outspoken as David, and probably would not have had quite the drama trail, I also was very defensive and thought that nobody could possibly understand what I had been through - I did not have a super happy childhood, that is for sure. I am glad that there is no permanent evidence of my "acting like a teenager" like there is on these forums. Now that I am "elderly" (thanks, David!), the only evidence is the fragmented memories of other elderly people, lol!

It is very true that David acts like a 17 year old at times. I do not try to protect him or excuse it when he acts his age - or younger. I have corresponded with him privately many times with advice. I have even told him that coming down on newbies in the same way that was done to him, and for the same reasons a short time ago, comes off as arrogant. And I think he has come a long way. And I have told him that he should use these challenges as a way to grow and improve his communication skills, which are better now, but still need improvement. So don't think I am "on his side" because he is a kid.

That said, I can understand (not necessarily excuse) when he reverts to being a kid and becomes defensive when attacked. I probably identify with this trait because I had to work hard to overcome it myself, and only considered myself reasonably successful in my mid to late 20s. It was hard work to not be defensive when I felt I was attacked and my blood pressure was rising! I sure didn't have it under control as a teen. And that is why I am more patient than some, I guess.

However, I must point out, that other than needing a little more humble attitude, he was doing pretty well until a few people started getting on him about selling without the contributor membership. But please remember that a couple of members specifically asked him questions about what he was selling, which brought it more into focus. After being jumped on, while distraught from his loss, he SHOULD have apologized for mentioning selling, and let it go. But he totally blew it by becoming defensive, just like I might have done at 17. And it went downhill from that. I think he blew it, but only AFTER others pushed him beyond his (teenage) limits. Betsy even tried to defuse the situation by pointing out that he responded to HER questions, but the situation was already deteriorating.

As to the question at hand concerning hypocrisy, I am a bit ambivalent about it. On one hand, yes, the population will suffer the same whether an animal is removed by killing or capturing. For the ecosystems in question, the important question is the status of population of the species, and the pressure it is under from various human or other stresses. I can't really answer that question about either species. But I can tell you that from my observations in Madagascar, ecosystems could very often BENEFIT by allowing local people to collect and sell certain quotas. Then the local people have a real reason to protect the habitat that produces their "product", and if a head tax is collected, local authorities can fund research and protection when needed. All of the C.I.T.E.S. protection of the tortoises in Madagascar only serve to limit their use to not particularly filling meals for locals, since they are not "good" for anything else. Think how much chicken one could buy with the sale of one tortoise!

I have no idea if African fat tails fall into a similar category in which quotas can actually promote conservation - but it is a possibility.

All of that aside, trying to use a conservation argument to stop killing may not be totally logical. But I am also a little emotional about avoiding killing animals whenever possible - even though I am not a vegetarian, and I have killed many a chicken and ate them. Not completely logical, but then I don't eat snakes.

When I am trying to convince somebody not to kill a snake, I try to use whatever argument I think will work, without actually lying. I often tell people that killing snakes will increase rodent populations and maybe diseases. That might be generally true, but the couple that one person kills won't change statistics. But whatever works... The more experienced one is at debates, the more logical and consistent arguments can be presented. I agree that David is not yet a very good debater and is inconsistent and emotional in his debates / arguments. And I agree that he is sometimes emotional and sometimes reverts to an immature teen when he feels he is being attacked. But I think that some who have long ago tired of his immaturity have learned that he will quickly rise to the bait when it is thrown out, and prove once again, that he is "just a kid". As an "elderly" adult, I would like to hold myself to a higher standard, and want to model more maturity than most 17 year old kids can muster, no matter how hard they try.

I know that most here disagree with my opinion, and that is fine. I generally retire from threads once the drama starts. I am hoping that I won't feel the need to continue in this one. But I did have to say my piece, without rancor towards anyone, to share my own opinion. I have even repped some on the other thread for an opposing, but true and well stated, post. Although I am trying to see "just the facts", we are all entitled to our own opinions - and that's all any of them are, anyway.

By the time you read all of this lengthy essay, you will be too tired to post, and BOTH threads will DIE, lol!

Very well said Kathy and much of the point I was trying to make though you said it a lot better

kathylove said:

it is thrown out, and prove once again, that he is "just a kid". As an "elderly" adult, I would like to hold myself to a higher standard, and want to model more maturity than most 17 year old kids can muster, no matter how hard they try.

I know that most here disagree with my opinion, and that is fine. I generally retire from threads once the drama starts. I am hoping that I won't feel the need to continue in this one. But I did have to say my piece, without rancor towards anyone, to share my own opinion. I have even repped some on the other thread for an opposing, but true and well stated, post. Although I am trying to see "just the facts", we are all entitled to our own opinions - and that's all any of them are, anyway.

By the time you read all of this lengthy essay, you will be too tired to post, and BOTH threads will DIE, lol!

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I agree he is just a kid.. But a calculating arrogant know it all spoilt kid..
Last year i found him to be a liar about his Herald snake claims.. he was telling newbs how venomous his rear fang was if you have all forgotten...
I called him up about it so he brought in the big guns to prove his point, Dr Bryan grieg fry (the worlds leading toxocologist) to back up his claim.... Unbeknown to david, Bryan is a friend of mine and visits a very good friend of mine..... And he remembered David.... So David called on Dr Wolfgang Wuster to back up his claim.... Wolfgang is head of toxicology in Wales.... he's very good friends with lots of people I know... Epic fail on two counts spring to mind... All in all David managed to get a months ban over the way he was behaving....
I spent the last year chatting with david and trying to steer him, boost his esteem... etc...
This year he starts again.... The Cobra incident, bringing in another kid as a wing man..... Then he sends taunting pm's .... Then tries to lure me into blackmail...... The kid is a liability to himself.......
I find him a calculating little troll from my experience with him...
And on other forums he is telling newbs how he is venomous trained and deals with them daily.....
I could stomach him if he could remember we are only tolerating his childishness, and he didn't pontificate over newer members...
Bottom line..... If he was welsh, he would of had an epic slap by now....
You can all romanticize about helping a great to be herper...... I think he is just paying lip service..... And laughing at you.....

John3:16 said:

Tonight doing chores my teen age son and younger daughter found a copperhead in the barn......next to my son's foot!!!!!:eek1:
She called out snake, he jumped back and identified it as a possible copperhead....

They came and got my DH who went down to the barn, confirmed it as a copperhead and sadly had to kill it.

We are all soooo upset...We didn't know what else to do..it could have bitten the kids, it could have bitten the baby goats....the dogs......:shrugs:

Neither my husband or I know how to handle hot snakes!!...we couldn't move it...I couldn't leave it there with 4 little kids running about in the barn!!!!!!!

Akkk..I don't like having had to do this at all....anyone have any better ideas for next time?

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Well, I read this whole dern thread, so I figure I paid my dues and can afford to make a comment, or few.

First, you're in your rights to dispatch the venous snake, since it's on your property and you're protecting family, pets, possessions, etc. Also, you're correct that you aren't any expert on handling venomous snakes, so you shouldn't. But, then too, some snake bites occur when trying to kill a snake, and most of the time it's better to just leave them alone. I understand that in your case you couldn't just leave the snake there, however, and respect your decision.

What can you do next time, that's the question? My first reaction is that I would just "hook" the snake and put it in a bucket, preferrably with a screw on top. But then I've probably been doing this for forty years and it wouldn't be anything new. I live in southern AZ and down here folks either leave it alone, kill the snake, call the fire dept., or move it with a long stick, rake, or something like that. One thing you might do is use a long-handled minnow net or butterfly net and try to scoop it into the net. Then you could move it and hold it away from you at the same time without worrying about a strike.

I have to agree with one thing said earlier by several people. Copperheads are a pretty common snake most places they occur. I used to see a lot of them when I lived in s.e. Ohio. If you have them, they're always going to be there, even if you get rid of everyone you see. One of the best things for your children is to educate them. They need to know the potential dangers. I know you showed them the dead snake, which is good to help them i.d. the snake and understand. And, I'm sure you understand the snake is still dangerous even after death. Don't touch those fangs.

Something I don't agree with is the info given by one person on how deadly the copperhead is. I know several people that have been bitten by copperheads, usually trying to handle them, rarely in the field. A healthy person is not in jeopardy of death from a copperhead bite, unless maybe a baby. But you would have lots of time to seek out medical treatment. Not understanding this could make your kids fear that a bite means certain death. This is not true. Copperheads are one of the least dangerous of the pit-vipers. Rattlers are much more dangerous.

In AZ we have about 13 species of rattlesnakes, depending on which classification we're using this year. I live on one acre and have western diamondbacks in my yard. This is one of the most notorious rattlesnakes in America, not because they are the most venomous, but because they are the most common and have big yields when they bite, many of the times. Last year, however, we only had three bites in my town, all by baby diamondbacks. One man was bitten and I don't know the circumstances and two women. One woman on the hand, as she was gardening and pulling weeds, and the other as she was walking down her driveway at night in flip-flops. She stepped on the snake.

The snakes are dangerous, so I have lights all around my house, so visitors can walk safely to their cars at night. I mostly ignore the snakes myself. One reason is that I have lots of field experience and I'm very good at spotting them. Another reason is that they help keep the rodent populations down. Then again, I know there are always going to be rattlers, and they are just part of the system. I believe the best defense is a good education.

How to keep the vens out of your yard, barn, etc. The first year I was in AZ in our new home I found approximately 20 rattlers in the yard. I also noticed that there were a lot of rodents, especially pack rats or wood rats. This is because the previous owner had lots of vegetation, brush piles, and other junk laying around. So, the first year I cleaned up the lots, front and back, best as I could, and started trapping the pack rats. I caught 13 large rats and found at least four nests. The second year I only saw about 5 rattlers all year. I trapped more rodents, pack rats, gophers, and mice. This year I only saw three rattlers all year, and no very big ones. My point being, hold down the food source, and they will look elsewhere. Also, keep your yard clean. Try not to leave objects the snakes can hide under around your barn and inside. There will likely still be the occasional snake.

Here's a tiger rattler I found crossing the road in the mountains nearby. I hooked it and put it in a secure container to bring home, so I could get nice photos of this cool-looking snake....

I took it back the next day for release. This was part of an ongoing project, but I also wanted to point out that some of us find this common place.

Here's a big guy you wouldn't want to get tagged by....

You have to be diligent when in diamondback country. Copperheads are so much less dangerous. The more you know about them, the easier it is to avoid any contact.

I would suggest getting a snake stick, either one with clamps, or just one with a hook. You can even make your own. One thing you should know about coppers is that they can only strike about half their body length and they usually don't get over three feet long. I think a 4 or 5 foot snake hook would do the job. Just hold it away from you, bt. you and the snake. Hook in the middle and lift gently into the waiting container. The snake isn't likely to strike unless you antagonize it, get inside three feet, or touch it somehow.

Finally, protect yourself. Whenever it's cool enough wear long pants, especially blue jeans. Wear boots. Even diamondbacks can't bite through a leather boot. Wear leather gloves when cleaning outdoors, moving wood, etc. Gloves have saved me from a bite several times. I also got tagged by a copperhead on the boot and watched the venom trickle down. I've always worn boots in the field and glad of it.

Hope some of this helps. Interesting strand, except for some of the banter. That gave me a headache....LOL!

Terry :santa:

this thread has gone one waaaay to long.

gob144 said:

this thread has gone one waaaay to long.

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Look at the posting dates, think.
This thread stopped "going on" almost two weeks ago. You brought it back and made it longer, and offered nothing in return.

my my sorry.