Just feeling cranky this morning

You know, when I set up this site and put in a For Sale section, I wondered if I was making a mistake, since I make my living off of selling my own corn snakes. I could see the drawbacks of doing that, but heck, I was trying not to be petty about restricting people from openly competing with me on my own website. So I decided to go ahead and allow people to post their FOR SALE ads here and just not worry about it.

But honestly, when I see people posting their ads and obviously undercutting my prices by $20, well it does kind of make me think about reconsidering my decision. Honestly I AM strongly considering removing that section and simply pointing people over to the FaunaClassifieds site. Yeah, that is my site too, but for some reason I feel more like this is my home turf as far as the corn snakes are concerned.

So am I just being in a bad mood today and kind of grumpy? Too overly sensitive and cranky? Should I look at an alternative, such as setting it so that ONLY contributors can post FOR SALE ads here? Or would that be even a worse solution?

You know, I try to set prices high enough so that everyone getting into the newer stuff can make some decent money off of them and make this worthwhile for us all to participate in. But when people begin cutting prices immediately, well then perhaps I really shouldn't be concerned with helping out "the other guy" at all. unch:

Thought one.

IMO I think that maybe the peoples that sell the snakes like 20$ less than you are maybe not as recognized so they probably feel they can't sell their snake at the same price you do.

Now I find it great that you try to keep this business worthwhile. If all the people in this business would make the same thing, we would maybe not have to make 4000+ babies for living of this. The problem is that it is always like this in all business. I work with photographs and graphic shops and it is ridiculous. The peoples are always trying to charge less and less. They don't make money, after 2 years they are gone and in the meantime, nobody make money. And when their business died, there is another newbie that immerge and do the same thing.

I am in this business (snakes) since not much long but just this week, someone was contacting me. He wanted to buy some snakes and wanted to know if I had best prices than those in Ontario!

Now for your problem, I don't know. Maybe, like you said you could permit that only to the contributors or charge a minimal fee for the ads, or ask that the prices would be no less than yours. I think this is a good thing that there is a place here and not just on fauna. I started to go on Fauna, and it is not the same thing. I really prefer the site here and I think the people that want to sell snakes here are in contact with more potential buyers than on Fauna.

It is your site, your rules. Just hope you find a way for you to feel confortable with this but I hope we will not loose our for sale section.

Just my 2 cents.

I definitely see your point. I was surprised when I first started coming here that you did have a free ad section. Maybe if you limit ads to those who contribute financially to the site, at least you will be making something from your competitors. And you will make it slightly more expensive for them to sell their snakes here, thus making it more difficult (even if only a little) to sell them really cheaply.

People who do this strictly as a hobby, and who don't consider their own time in their pricing structure, will always undercut those who do it for a living. That is the free market system. By allowing it here, you do benefit the site by giving a lot of choices to those who use the site. But if you do allow it, there should be some benefit to you in doing so. Why not make ads one of the reasons to become a contributor to this site?

BTW, thanks for adding the spell check here!

I sure hope I"m not one of the ones that have undercut your prices. Honestly~ I don't check other peoples prices unless I'm buying. When I sell I just arbitrarily pick a price that they are valued at to ME. Like Kathy says~ it's the difference between being a hobbiest and doing this for a living.

This is your living though~ and this site is your BEST advertisement (in MY opinion) but the advertising you do on this site is very small, and you allow your competitors to advertise as much as they like for free from here. While I would hate to lose the free advertising for myself~ from a business standpoint maybe the For Sale forum should go to YOUR price list. It's YOUR web site afterall. If you wanted to continue to being a nice guy and allowing free, or low cost advertisements to us~ make a link (kind of like your very small blue box that says "sponsored by Serpenco", you know something that can be easily found, but would not draw attention away from your for sale items) that can link to Fauna's for sale page, or to another for sale page here.

You own this site, you do all the work, and it should advertise for you. I don't see any reason why the for sale page shouldn't shuffle shoppers through YOUR price list before they get to see what others who are free-loading off you are offering.

Rich -

I'm pretty new to the hobby and new to the forum, as well. One of my snakes was gravid when I bought her, and I've been taking good care of the eggs. In a couple of weeks, I'll have anywhere from 15 to 20 hatchlings that I won't be able to keep. (She laid 23 healthy eggs, and I haven't had any problems.) As a new hobbyist, I'm concerned that I won't be able to find buyers other than pet shops for my snakes, and I certainly don't want to sell to a pet store where the animal might lost its registration, be neglected, or go home with someone I won't even get to meet. I'm so grateful for the work you do here and for the opportunity to list my snakes in the for-sale section. I chose to be a contributing member of the site as recognition for the work you put in. As a new hobbyist and potential breeder, I certainly don't want to undercut anyone's prices unreasonably...especially as I'd love to invest in some of your snakes when I get done selling mine. It would be helpful if some guidelines for pricing were listed for that forum. I wouldn't mind paying a percentage of the price of the snake as a listing fee, either. I certainly pay eBay and half.com plenty to list my crafts and textbooks. I've helped run an online game off and on for several years, and we run into similar frustrations with users who don't make any contribution, fiscally or otherwise, and then want to change the way things work or undermine our rules. It's a great thing you've got here, and it's helped me understand and justify the prices for cornsnakes better.

Thank you so much.

Well Rich you have an extremely valid point, and I understand it well. Most of my hatchlings prices come from looking at the prices of you 'big 3' and a couple of others and taking an average of sorts. I don't want to be responsible for undercutting you guys, but I also don't want to end up holding onto a lot of good stuff because people would rather pay more from someone that is established such as yourselves. At least that's the way I look at doing business.

I think most of the prices I have begun advertising are close to if not the same as yours except for my normals het bloodred/lav. I feel guilty in that I have been planning on having normals het for bloodred lavender hatch out. I cannot afford to raise and breed all the hatchlings and therefore knew that I could get something for them in return down the road. Only problem was until you got your 2005 price list set up, I had no idea what they'd be worth or what someone would be willing to pay. I arranged 2 trades for other morphs I'm interested in, and then priced some to a couple of individuals as well. Problem is when your price list came out I saw you had the same thing listed for $250! Shocked me, but also seems reasonable. I immediately reposted my price on my website for $150, and felt guilty for possibly 'undercutting' your price as well. Thinking about it though, I personally would be one of those people who would get your normals het blood/lav on your 50% off deal, so in actuality they would be paying $125 instead of $250 . . . My other problem is that I am still trying to establish a reputation as a quality breeder with quality service and product. That can't be done overnight nor can it be done if noone is willing to purchase my snakes because they're too expensive.

I think this issue is related to posts made recently about 'industry standards' on pricing of our product. It seems like pulling teeth to get over $150 for a proven breeder.

I'm a contributor, here as well as Fauna, and have done so because I greatly appreciate what you have put in place for us. I will continue to contribute in the future as well.

Kind of a rambling post, but wanted to put myself out there as someone who posted in your For Sale board that has thought about this issue.
D80

As I mentioned earlier, this is kind of a thorny subject. And not one that is easily resolved, much less discussed without the feeling that toes are being stepped on. Heck, I get this all of the time. At shows, people will walk past my tables early on just to check my prices so they know what to put on their animals, pricing them cheaper. And I am sure that once my 2005 prices went up, several people adjusted their prices accordingly as well. Now I can't do anything about that, nor would I want to. Everyone is free to charge whatever they think they can get for something. The question arises, however, about what to do about it HERE, on THIS site.

And honestly, I really don't know what to do. What exactly is "fair"? Or on the other hand, is there really any ethical requirement at all that I even be "fair" when it comes to how I manage this site for sales? Just so happens that I LIKE to be fair, otherwise this wouldn't even be an issue. But at what point do I come to the determination that the fairness is a one way street?

Do I REQUIRE something from anyone wanting to post stuff for sale here (via the membership fee)? Or do I just not allow it altogether? Or do I just wait and see how I feel about it tomorrow, because maybe I'm just in a funky mood today?

:shrugs: :shrugs: :shrugs:

I don't know I have lots of different thoughts on this, but want to start off by saying I CAN completely understand where you are coming from. Personally I think in the past you have kept your prices cheap, almost too cheap, something that it looks like you are finally stepping away from. I am sure it bothers you to see people undercut you by $20, but wouldn't it bother you even more if any old "blow Joe" could get the same price for a snake as you after the years you have spent building a reputation? I don't feel like I would sell any snakes unless I had them cheaper, why buy from me when they can get your name behind the snakes for the same price? In the past I had set my prices only having to reduce them drastically after seeing what your price list looked like. I couldn't understand how you can sell them at those prices and still make a living, I am just trying to get these guys to pay for themselves.
Things are a bit better this year, I much like Drizzt, was mortified when I saw what you were asking for Normals het Hypo Lav Blood. Not because I thought it was in any way unreasonable, but because I sold these for about $40 each last year. Talk about kicking ones self! I will definitely be watching what you plan to do with these Anery C's if they do prove to be a new gene, it is not my intention to undercut you, but people are interested and I wouldn't have the slightest idea what to ask for these.
I'm behind you whatever you decide to do, and if you do decide to only let paying participants post ads, maybe there should be different levels like on Fauna, and a level a little higher than the $25 a year be required. Although then it would be cheaper to just buy a personal forum in here for $25 a year. Which honestly I think has been a steal for the use I have gotten out of mine, I am shocked more people haven't done it. And heck if there was a price increase, I'd pay it. Over at that "other" place it's like $100 a year for the basic classified account, and honestly Rich, I get a LOT more inquires from your free classified than I do from my ads over there. One other way that having a free classifieds bites you back is that people are less inclined to purchase banner ads. I don't know, maybe everyone will hate me for being honest and frank, but I think you have a great point. One other concern would be that the cheapskates will just start cheating by posting pics of their snakes in the photo gallery and saying "isn't this snake a beauty, her eggs will hatch any day now" HINT, HINT, HINT.

I can also see your point, Rich. I will say that I feel the same as Carol and Drizzt, though. I do not think there is ANY way I could sell my snakes for the same price as you. I have only been breeding snakes for 3 years. I have been working hard to build up a name for myself, but it is something that takes time. I usually set my prices for what I think that I can get for them...even though I know they are worth more.

Rich Z said:

And honestly, I really don't know what to do. What exactly is "fair"? Or on the other hand, is there really any ethical requirement at all that I even be "fair" when it comes to how I manage this site for sales? Just so happens that I LIKE to be fair, otherwise this wouldn't even be an issue. But at what point do I come to the determination that the fairness is a one way street?

Click to expand...

Trying your best to be fair is what gives you your integrity and the strong reputation you have. You can't please all the people all the time, but you do a pretty darn good job of pleasing most of the people all the time. The rest are just a pain in the arse!

Looking back, introspectively, what I should have done was just asked you what you thought Normals het bloodred/lav should be priced at. BUT, I also don't want to act like a newb and 'bother' you knowing just how busy you are with everything.

I consider myself a small fish in a big pond right now as this is my first 'real' year where internet sales will be a larger part of doing business. (Along with the cost of shipping supplies etc.) Most of what I produced last year went to local pet stores and a wholesaler out of Minneapolis . . . talk about undercutting your prices!! :eek1: Selling hatchlings het for lav (unbeknownst to them!) for $15 was TOUGH!

Interestingly enough, just the other day I was explaining to a coworker how I got my domain hosting through you Rich. She asked the question your asking of why you'd host a domain that is in essence in competition with him. My response was that the 'corn world' is what I"ve found to be a lot more open than you'd expect. ie. people sharing 'recipes' etc. for different morphs/cultivars. That may be our problem where pricing is concerned, but I'd have to say it's a much bigger benefit where the things that count are concerned . . . friendship, comradery, integrity, etc. I don't follow the boa or python communities, so that may be off base, but my impression from getting snippets is there's a ton of fraud, bad deals, back stabbing, etc. going on.

Just to make sure and cover my a$$, I double checked my posted price list, and am the same or higher than you on all morphs (bloodreds for $75 to your $50) except for the normals het bloodred/lav that I already shared.

I don't want to come off sounding like a brown noser with some of my comments, but I think it's pretty bad business to bite the hand that feeds you, and basically you (Rich), Kathy, and Don would have to be the biggest three that feed this hobby. Of course maybe that's why I'm not trying to make a living out of this, I can't/won't be cut-throat about doing business . . . I'd never make it with Trump!

In short(?), I think it's more than fair to only allow contributors to post for sale. (Maybe that's because I am one and wouldn't be affected so much.) As a contributor, I'd also think it would be fair to have a second tier allowing for sale ads. But like you've implied, at what detriment to the board overall if any. A benefit may be getting rid of a lot of ads stating "snake for sale, don't want to ship cause I don't know how, etc. blah blah".

D80

Well my anal retentiveness is now showing . . . oops, better cover that up!

Going through the 50 most recent posts, I think there's 3 groups of people:
1. Contributors that respect the service you've provided with reasonable posts.
2. Non Contributors that are obviously taking advantage of the 'service' either with continual posting or cheaper prices, or both!
3. Non Contributors that are just 'looking for a new home' for their snake.

Would a policy like this be 'easy' to implement:
1. Contributors only can post for sale ads.
2. 10 ad maximum per year for the contributor level.
3. $(insert nomination here) per ad above 10. (contributor plus - ie. own forum owner or banner advertiser would have a higher max # ie. 20)
4. Ad a local giveaway/rescue section for unwanted corns.
5. Enforcement of 'deleting old ads', (though I don't see this as being a problem since the contributor are already doing that! . . . except for DdotSpot!)

I'm sure there'd be some things to tweak there, but it's what first comes to mind. One thing I've already thought of is continual editing of an initial posted ad.

Anyway, just some thoughts.
D80


Contributors:
CornCrazy 6 posts
carol 2 posts (1 deleted) contributor plus
Drizzt80 2 posts (1 deleted) (me)
DdotSpot sold and ad still listed (shame on you! )
shep151
Hurley contributor plus plus

Non Contributors:
Gorilla Newb asking what to sell his snake for
tsthompson 1.2 snows make an offer
stephen 5 posts (Kinda confused why he's not a contributor . . .)
mike 171 selling ratsnakes
blckkat (kinda confused why she's not a contributor . . . believe she is on Fauna)
ultimatecorns 4posts
sjatm941 one of those come pick it up posts
newt Canadian looking to trade a beardie for a corn
franklin 2 posts request for Don S.'s email address . . .?!
Gregg (in my opinion should be a contributor . . . )
vicdc ONLY 36 posts since Aug 2003, and majority are just for sale ads HMMMM!!!
hzahorka snake sold and post still listed . . .
krenna selling a normal het lav/stripe for $100 what a steal!
Gallagher
homersimpson price drop 3 times in order to sell . . . ad is 'hanging' so to speak
Prellas 'just in case' scenario post . . . confusing
cornsnakekeeper thread from 2004 revived!!
carl3 snakes sold, ad still up
oreo1700

Sorry this is a little :-offtopic but I have found in certain instances I can no longer delete my threads. Maybe we can only delete them when no one has replied? I recently tried to delete my ad in the "Wanted" forums and was unable. Am I missing something or is this just because others replied?

I, too, have been unable to delete some of my old "for sale" ads. Not to mention that SOMETIMES it is VERY hard to find them. I have wondered if I should make a list with exact titles of the for sale ads so that I can find them when the snakes are sold. There have been times when I haven't gotten a reply and the ad gets "lost."

Well, I figured out how to do a search for ALL of the sales ads I have ever posted. I was able to delete all of the ones that aren't valid anymore. YAY!

Off topic answer to off topic query

Deleting ads is actually a landmine. This system allows me to turn on/off deleting for each forum, which sounds real nice except when you get to the details of it. What this actually means is the capability of deleting a THREAD. That is ALL of the posts in a thread you started. Including posts that other people may have posted on it. Now at first blush this seems OK, because this is an advertisement that you created, so why not? But think about it a moment. How many times have some threads posted in that section become a REAL discussion? Is it FAIR that you have the power to delete ALL of those comments and information that other people may have posted on that thread you started? How would you feel if someone did that to you?

This actually happened once when a discussion got quite lengthy and the person who started the ad just went and deleted the whole thing, pretty much in spite. Luckily I can recover such things, but it certainly drove the point home to me that this was a problem I needed to address.

So, see why I removed the delete capability? Now I can set it up so that any ads placed in that section will not allow replies to it, but is that option really in your best interests?

Well...people can PM or e-mail the seller. I think it would be OK to set it up that way.

Rich...

A few thoughts from a relative novice...

To me yourself, Don and Kathy are the "Holy Trinity" of corns. I dove into this hobby with both feet, and $$, about 2 years ago. If there is a particular corn morph I want a hatchling or yearling of..one of you is going to get the sale 90% of the time. I have ZERO doubt about quality, support and service..hence the dollars spent far outweigh saving some dollars on the initial purchase.

Granted, I don't have huge dollars to afford "cutting edge" morphs. For every $50 I spend with you...you have customers that spend $500. So I'm not sure if I'm a "good" customer...but I'm a VERY happy, satisfied customer. I'll be back as space and $$ allow (smile).

To get back towards the topic...I've used this site and Fauna to acquire some adults and a few younger snakes. Carol, Clint, Kat and Michelle are a few of the quality folks I've been able to deal with because of your sites. Many of the snakes that I got from them are originally from one of you "big three". For me..almost a cause and effect. I hope some of the dollars I spend with them trickle back to you as they buy some new stock. Maybe that's naive...shrug. As I learn..anything associated with you becomes a "seal of quality", for lack of a better term.


In any case...your site, your rules. If you even charged a fee for a listing or required they be a site contributor...do what you feel works.

Hope this helped even a bit.

Of course, maybe you were just feeling cranky yesterday morning . . . :sidestep:

D80

Drizzt80 said:

shep151 (another one that I wonder why they're not a contributor . . . )

Click to expand...

I am a contributor. I did dally, but the same day I submitted my "For Sale" ad this year, I ante'd up!
I just haven't complained about not having my name bolded and my medallion posted because, grand scheme of things, both me and Rich have busy lives and more important things to worry about right now, I think! Also, obviously, my contributor abilities are in full effect, so really no reason to complain.

Shep151 said:

I am a contributor. I did dally, but the same day I submitted my "For Sale" ad this year, I ante'd up!
I just haven't complained about not having my name bolded and my medallion posted because, grand scheme of things, both me and Rich have busy lives and more important things to worry about right now, I think! Also, obviously, my contributor abilities are in full effect, so really no reason to complain.

Click to expand...

Well Shep glad to see you're a contributor. No bad will intended of course, was just surprised that you weren't 'listed' as a contributor!

I also think it ads more credibility to the list of contributors that have posted for sale ads versus those who aren't contributors. (Which is actually why I was surprised you 'weren't' a contributor as I'd thought you would be.)

D80

Just rolled in from West Texas and thought I'd throw my two cents in....

I've watched the repeat violators of Rich's goodwill casually show up and post want adds with no other interactions.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with paid classifieds. Perhaps contributors get a discount or there could be a "one price for 10 adds" package.