Legitimate Reason Wanted

Originally Posted by Fatman608

This sounds like a TROLL post to me.

Love the Fatman

Not a troll, has been here a while & participates in discussions & doesn't start fights. I think it's a legitimate desire to get input from the folks here.

Originally Posted by Shiari

Yes, but enrichment in zoos are in the form of the environment and toys. You'll note that zoos aren't throwing a live zebra to the lions.

No, in case of the big predators, it would be overdoing it. Smaller animals yes, especially when the feeders are insects, they are regularly used as part of an enrichment.

Originally Posted by Hallie

It is still anthropomorphism no matter how you look at it. And as for the 'enrichment' in zoos that Kali mentioned, the enrichment is being used for birds and mammals, animals that are known to need the enrichment due to 'higher brain function' (not exactly what I'm trying to say, but I think you know what I mean). As far as I know, and I could be wrong as I haven't been to a zoo in years, they aren't providing the tarantulas, roaches, snakes, fish, etc. with toys and such.

Originally Posted by Nanci

I think I am able to provide a "fight" with a dead mouse and a pair of tongs that greatly exceeds what a snake might deal with IRL. But I don't think it is necessary, and don't routinely feed them like that.

Actually, toys are given to the octopus, food enrichment to the piranha's and clicker training to the komodo dragon, also a form of enrichment.
In any case I'm not saying an enrichment is nessecary for these animals or for snakes, but I can agree when the OP calls it a mental stimulus.
I also said in that same paragraph that you could use decoration for that use, should you feel the need for some enrichment.
Wether the animal would benefit from it, or completely doesn't care, is another discussion.

Originally Posted by Snakehead

The last one I had injured was a Red Tail green rat that grabbed the mouse from the rear and before she could subdue the mouse properly she was bitten in the mouth, which later becaime infected and turned into mouth rot. I was able to cure her of mouthrot but she never really fed well after the whole ordeal and she evenyually died.

Originally Posted by cmalchow

Absolutely!!! My husband insisted that I feed my snakes live. So just to get him to shut up I did a few times. And one of my snakes who strikes perfect every single time didn't just once and the mouse bit him. So then I was left with an injured snake that I had to worry about and take care of. Even supervised it happens so fast that there is not much you can do if something does go wrong. Luckily, my husband realized you don't mess with me and my snakes.

Thank you both very much for sharing this! I may have missed it before, but this are the first actual stories of injuries from supervised live feeding I have ever read. You always hear/see the "snake left overnight with mouse/rat" stories/pics. Maybe because they're more horrible...?

Originally Posted by Kali

Thank you both very much for sharing this! I may have missed it before, but this are the first actual stories of injuries from supervised live feeding I have ever read. You always hear/see the "snake left overnight with mouse/rat" stories/pics. Maybe because they're more horrible...?

I also had a close call, where the mouse turned and started biting close to the eye of a snake. I freaked and quickly thumped the mouse on the head with my finger. I have big hands, lol. Can you imagine if a snake gets bit on an eye? This becomes more important when your dealing with snakes that cost 2 or 3 hundred dollars! A mouse bite on the body of a snake is probably no big deal. It's the eyes and mouth that are suseptable to infection.

I ticked both, but in reality, i fed fresh killed more often than not...

sometimes a new hatched will not take f/t so a warm fresh killed pinky is ideal.

I did find that, if fed on rat pinks/fuzzies for a long period made my corns reluctant to take mouse pinks/fuzzies so a mixed diet proved to be both better for the corns and easier for me to mange as i would breed rats, mice, hampster and gerbil....

From Kali

Thank you both very much for sharing this! I may have missed it before, but this are the first actual stories of injuries from supervised live feeding I have ever read. You always hear/see the "snake left overnight with mouse/rat" stories/pics. Maybe because they're more horrible...?

This is exactly how I felt about it.

From wstphal

Not a troll, has been here a while & participates in discussions & doesn't start fights. I think it's a legitimate desire to get input from the folks here.

Thanks for this! It means a lot! Granted this is the first time in my many years of going to forums I have been called a troll. It makes me want to dress up as one for halloween!

From Nanci

Those bins are Fresher Longer, which are unfortunately no longer available. But now there are lots of other bins with similar type seals! I got them from Sharper Image before they went out of business, before they got back in business.

That blows. Reason I asked is because like I voted on the poll, we do both. And I do want to get into breeding snakes. I also realize people have different desires on if they feed f/t or live. So I want my snakes to be able to eat both. I have one corn that I swear she has the appetite of a king snake and will eat anything we put in there, including going for my hands the first week we had her!

Gah! I accidently clicked the post button before I was done. On the snake that we have that will eat anything. I bought her from Home Grown Herps in July at Repticon here and they also told me she was fed on both f/t and live. The only thing they did do that I dont like is they breed her. And she was only 189grams when I bought her home.

I feed predominately F/T. If I have a hatchling who is not eating, then I will try live with them, but would always try to convert them to F/T. I just worry about putting adult/hopper mice in with adult snakes (my adult boy happily eats F/T) due to possible injuries. I suppose if I ever had to I'd stun the mouse first and I'd certainly supervise constantly.

I feed mainly f/t but breed mice and asf. I use the pelleted horse bedding called "ABM" or "dry den" and aspen (They usually pick out the aspen to line their nests) when they get smelly its time to clean the cage... I personally find the different colors and types of mouse morph almost as much fun to breed as snakes. You can see the results of your genetic mixes much faster as well!
There is the occasional corn snake hatchling that won' take f/t. I also have adults and juveniles that only take live. I certainly prefer feeding frozen and I don't need to breed a whole lot of rodents to keep the few stubborn snakes fed. When I feed live I keep a vigil on the snake until I'm sure the mouse is dead - I have had to thump them on the head while being constricted or slip a flat butter knife between mouse and snake to avoid a snake getting bitten. Kind of like the tongue depressor Susan uses... The snakes that take live I continue to try to switch to f/t. I do try to pick the ones that take f/t most readily to hold back as breeders.

I don't know if my reason for feeding F/T as opposed to live or F/K is considered a "legitimate" reason, but I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only person out there who is philosophically or morally opposed to feeding anything other than F/T. I've always loved snakes, but it wasn't until I learned that I had that option that I actually got one. I recently gave away my favorite corn snake because he refused to switch over to F/T from Live.

I don't want to kill, and I don't want to put a rodent into a snake cage for the snake to kill. I am not convinced that the rodent doesn't suffer, and I don't want to be part of that on my end. I'll let the rodent raisers do my killing for my snakes, just like I let the slaughterhouses kill the chicken I eat for dinner.

Please do not ridicule my reasons or decisions in this area. If you prefer to feed live or f/k, that's up to you, and I don't judge you for it. I would expect the same from you.

I only feed my snakes f/t. One of my snakes I don't even think would know what to do with a live mouse. I tried the zombie dance with her to see if she would strike and constrict and she just sat there and looked at it until I put it down and let her eat it.

I also don't feed live because I don't like to kill. I even feel guilty killing spiders and such in my house and will avoid it if possible (catch and release). But that doesn't make me a vegan! I don't have a problem with killing for food. I just can't bring myself to do it personally.

The one and only time I ever fed a snake live was when my boyfriend and his friends went mouse shopping for my kingsnake (only snake at the time). They brought home a live mouse because they thought it would be cool to watch the snake kill it. I really think there is something wrong with people who enjoy watching animals suffer.

My last reason for not feeding live or even fresh killed is that I would have to breed them myself. I had one rat in the past which wasn't so bad. But after she died I got two mice. One was a boy and one was a girl. My mom wouldn't get me another cage or take me to a store to get another cage (our "big" town is an hours drive). So we had a litter of 3 babies. I did not know mice could get pregnant again within a few days of giving birth! As the mom was nursing her first litter she was getting fat with a second. Just as the first litter opened their eyes and was able to eat on their own, mama gave birth to 12 more babies! So I had a lot of mice for a while. I did manage to finally get more cages and separate the boys and girls. But I felt like I was constantly cleaning and feeding, that I didn't enjoy them anymore and it was a chore to take care of them all. I gave a bunch away and all the ones I kept had to be put down due to cancer (they got huge tumors).

Right now the only rodent that I own is a rabbit and though she does use a litter pan she still poops in other places too if I don't watch her like a hawk. She chews everything up too if I don't watch her. So she mainly live in her cage (litter pan is in there too) and I get her out several times a day to play. I used to fill her cage with pine shavings. It was a pain to take the cage apart and dump it. Once she started using the litter pan I just put the shavings there. But I still had to dump that and bunny pee smells so bad! Now I use feline pine or the corn kind that clumps. But I still have to scoop the litter everyday or it stinks.
Then there is food. My rabbit eats timothy hay. I am allergic to timothy hay. My rabbit lives in my bedroom. For the past 5 years I haven't been able to breath through my nose when I am in my bedroom. But I am willing to suffer that. But I do spend a lot of money on her food as she eats constantly. I've done vowed that once my rabbit dies that I will never own another rodent again. They smell and are messy and I have to constantly clean up after them to make it all some what bearable.

So these are my personal reasons why I feed f/t.