• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

Info for would be corn breeders

I think I gave the wrong impression here. I do not agree with the culling of healthy animals per se. I think the breeder should, if they can't care for the animals themselves, find people who can! The reason I say this is not because i have a higher regard for life in general than people who do this but because I love the snakes and pets in general.

The only thing I'm saying is that to say I disagree with it because I have a higher regard for life would be hypocritical. Let's face it, when you watch your snake eat a mouse you just gave it while macking on a burger and talk about your higher regard for life, you are being a hypocrate.

There are pet mouse and rat owners who think we shouldn't be able to keep our pets because they eat what they consider to be pets. Do they have a higher regard for life than we do? Unless they are totally vegan and don't wear any leather, I'd have to say no. They just love their pets as much as I do. Let's face it, I know snakes naturally eat mice and rats and it doesn't really matter wether the food animals are wild or captive bred. Others don't.

What I'm saying is that I agree with your conclusions but I can't buy the reasoning. It's hypocritical. None of us has a higher regard for life in general, just in the type of animals we tend to think are disposable (cows, chickens, fish, mice, rats, etc.) and which aren't (snakes, cats, dogs, parrots, etc.)
 
slitheringdead: I don't know about anyone else, but I haven't been offended by you. I think that a difference in opinion is good. Keeps ones mind open to both sides of a debate. So long as people can keep it from being personal attacks, it is informative. You may never change someones mind about a subject, but it at least should allow them to reflect on how others perceive things. Also, on a whole I think it prepares us on how to deal with opinions that differ from our own. Which when in the public eye can allow us to remain professional. As we all know there are those out there that believe we are committing some act against nature by keeping reptiles (in general) as pets. And further commit foul acts by breeding said animals.
Which by the way is something else that fits in this post. Be prepared when breeding to have to face those people. It is different than just owning one. As that is a more of a private matter. But when you start breeding and putting yourself in the public eye, you will face critisim about what you are doing, how you are doing it, and even why.

I am sure if you talk to any of the people here who have been at this for any length of time, they all have stories about all three of those things happening to them. Not everyone is going to greet you with gratitude for breeding snakes no matter how great we all know them to be.
 
hippiebrian said:
I think I gave the wrong impression here. I do not agree with the culling of healthy animals per se. I think the breeder should, if they can't care for the animals themselves, find people who can! The reason I say this is not because i have a higher regard for life in general than people who do this but because I love the snakes and pets in general.

The only thing I'm saying is that to say I disagree with it because I have a higher regard for life would be hypocritical. Let's face it, when you watch your snake eat a mouse you just gave it while macking on a burger and talk about your higher regard for life, you are being a hypocrate.

There are pet mouse and rat owners who think we shouldn't be able to keep our pets because they eat what they consider to be pets. Do they have a higher regard for life than we do? Unless they are totally vegan and don't wear any leather, I'd have to say no. They just love their pets as much as I do. Let's face it, I know snakes naturally eat mice and rats and it doesn't really matter wether the food animals are wild or captive bred. Others don't.

What I'm saying is that I agree with your conclusions but I can't buy the reasoning. It's hypocritical. None of us has a higher regard for life in general, just in the type of animals we tend to think are disposable (cows, chickens, fish, mice, rats, etc.) and which aren't (snakes, cats, dogs, parrots, etc.)
Click to expand...


I believe in the natural order and the food chain. Snakes eats mice. Hawks eat snakes. I already stated that i have no problems with someone raising corns solely and specifically as a food source for kingsnakes. I also feel the same way if someone chooses to raise corns as a food source for their pet mongoose or any other predator higher up in the food chain. The premise that i've been trying to explain is how we should treat our "pets", whether it's a snake, mouse, dog, or whatever... Perhaps i'm tired and muddying up my thoughts and not doing a good job of it.
 
slitheringdead - I have not taken any offense to your posts but I want to understand better. To better understand I have a few questions to help clear it up for me. If you could take a moment to answer I think it would help. :)

1 - Do you think its wrong for the person who brought up feeding normal corns to king snakes to not only feed the normals off but kept the ones they wanted (more desirable morphs)? If so why?

The reason I ask is I keep more than one sp. that are considered each pets and feeders. I use them for each. Mourning geckos and roaches for example. Mourning geckos are an interesting example because they are parthenogenetic.

2- So is it okay for me to keep mourning geckos as pets and feeders (in your opinion) because they reproduce all on there own (with out a mate) or because I keep some and sell some as pets is it not okay?

3- Are roaches considered ok to keep as feeders and pets because they are bugs (not cute)?

4- Where do you draw the line with whats okay and whats not?

Sorry I'm just trying to get a better understanding of your opinion.
 
Which is the most ethical thing to do?
Sell or rehome- this means introducing that snake into the gene pool- you have NO control over whether the snake will be bred once it leaves- and if you sold it for cheap who knows where it's going to end up, we've all seen the horrors on craigslist ads and such. That snake may be end up kept in a tiny tank or grossly overfed or much worse...
Release into the wild -some people actually do this! - this means possibly introducing stuff into the wild population that shouldn't be there IF the snake escapes predation, freezing and all the other cruel ways wild snakes can die.
Cull- ensuring a humane death and usefulness as part of the food chain if it becomes food for something else.
 
ghosthousecorns said:
Which is the most ethical thing to do?
Sell or rehome- this means introducing that snake into the gene pool- you have NO control over whether the snake will be bred once it leaves- and if you sold it for cheap who knows where it's going to end up, we've all seen the horrors on craigslist ads and such. That snake may be end up kept in a tiny tank or grossly overfed or much worse...
Release into the wild -some people actually do this! - this means possibly introducing stuff into the wild population that shouldn't be there IF the snake escapes predation, freezing and all the other cruel ways wild snakes can die.
Cull- ensuring a humane death and usefulness as part of the food chain if it becomes food for something else.
Click to expand...

4. Keep them for as long as it takes to ensure they go to a good home?
5. Stop breeding snakes that you can't properly care for?
 
Then who should be allowed to breed? Everyone must start a line somewhere, either to match hets or produce certain color/patterns. Would you suggest a yearly breeding lottery?
 
Slithering- Well I had a long reply and hit the back button of browser somehow and lost it, but the gist was that I agree with 4 and 5 there - Keep them for as long as need be and don't breed them if you can't care for them. I think some of the stuff you are trying to say is the same stuff that even motivated me to start the whole thread in the first place. I would be interested though to see you address Lunar Gecko's post above my own, as I too would like to understand your opinion a little better?
 
Candachan said:
Snakehead, what does me being female have ANYTHING to do with my opinion?

Also, selling off non-ideal snakes "for cheap if I have to" is not taking responsibility for your 'by-products' so much as passing the buck.
Click to expand...

Well, Usually Ladies, tend to be more sensitive about living creatures. I know my wife is. Men are usually more brutish, and less sensitive but there are exceptions.

As for less than Ideal snakes....A gray Banded that is not blue is called normal! One that eats Lizards is called Normal! People pay good money for those! There is nothing substandard about these animals. I would never sell a snake that has real problems like kinks or eating disorders or star gazers or any other real defect! The things mentioned in this thread have not qualified as real defects. They just don't fit the unreal expectations of the breeder. Naturally inherent traits, take many generations to curve and it's hit and miss at best! I only mentioned selling them cheap because that would be better than killing them for no real good reason.
 
Snakehead: I go back to my earlier question though. If I feed corns to my kingsnakes and feed it the "less than desirables" and keep my desirables is that wrong in your opinion?

Just trying to understand this side of the arguement here.
 
Outcast said:
All I have to say is, I am glad there are people who cull out snakes that are badly kinked or have other issues. We had a few babies that had at least 2 kinks a piece and one had 5 kinks at Petco over the past month, all but one was sold, but I was surprised that they got out of the breeders place before being seen that they were deformed. I would not sell kinked babies, unless the kink was in a place that it could not hinder the babies feeding or defecating, even then I would have a problem with it, due to the chance of the baby being bred in the future and possibly passing that on to its progeny.

I respect life, but I also understand food chain mechanics. It is not my place to put my morals on my pets. I like snakes, and I like mice and rats. In fact I just had a talk with my manager about a rat we were going to send to the exterminator because she escaped. I will be bringing her home next Friday when I get paid and can get the litter and food for her.

Now honestly, this discussion was really good, until it turned to a debate of the moral's of culling.

I used to breed chickens, for show and food, and there were times when we had 30 hens and 50 roosters. Well, we would pick the roosters that we wanted, and cull the rest, I think we were able to put 20 in the freezer. The rest went to either friends, family, or a bonfire. I know it sounds harsh, but no one wants roosters without hens, and everyone's freezers were full. It was a hard thing to do, but growing up where I was, it was just something that happened.
Click to expand...

Again we are not talking about kinked or deformed animals here! Please understand, I think that's ok. What bothers me is killing off snakes that are prefectly normal! You freezing Roosters or giving them to friends is fine! At least you didn't just throw them in the trash. I know many people who would have loved to have those gray banded kings he killed.
 
Candachan said:
Aaron, I agree with you. But some people here would say, "Well you should take responsibility for your animals or have not bred them at all!" The chickens were culled and used for food, but were otherwise healthy. Culled snakes are useful as Kingsnake food. I honestly think culling IS taking responsibility for your animals MORESO than wholeselling them to a pet store or selling them 'for cheap' to any shlomo who wants them.

The reason kinked babies came to Petco is because "breeders" that sell to Petco really are only concerned about money.
Click to expand...

Exactly! The chickens were used for food! Nothing wrong with that. I don't see anything wrong with raising snakes to feed to another snake that only eats snakes, such as Coral snakes or Cobras. At least their death was not sensless. It serves a better purpose.
 
Lunar Gecko said:
I have never had to cull a snake but I have had one or two geckos that I have culled (hatch deformities). I Co2 them then I feed them to bigger geckos. Does that put me in the supporting life category or just the waist not want not category?

Culling needs to be done from time to time. I dont see doing it for any other reason than deformities. In the wild these animals would be the first to die by predator because they are slower. That's the way mother nature works. My 0.02 anyways.
Click to expand...

I agree! My original objection was someone who was killing snakes for being normal. They just didn't meet his unreasonabley high standards. Graybands are natural Lizard eaters. Just the fact that he was killing off nearly 100% of his offspring is a big clue! Thank God he stopped breeing them!
 
josie said:
I have really enjoyed this thread, well up until it was hijacked and turned into a debate about culling. As a newbie I can totally relate to the pull some people experience. Being a newbie to snakes I decided I would get 2010 babies and raise them, learning and growing experience as they mature. I haven't really given breeding a lot of though but when thinking about adding a new addition I look at who that new addition could be paired up with in the future if I do decide to breed but I have 3 years to make that decision. Until then I am really enjoying my babies and watching them grow. All of the points touched on in this thread are really good things to think about, even culling babies if need be. Over the next 3 years I will weigh all of the pros and cons of breeding and give it a lot of thought. I do not believe that people should breed animals just because they can. I have worked at the Humane Society and rescued, fostered, and rehabed parrots for over 15 years so I have seen first hand how unresponsible owners and breeders effect animals. I research any animal I am thinking about adding in my home because of those experiences.

As for culling, I grew up on a farm and we raised all of our own meat and grew our own veggies. When you breed and raise animals, mother nature is not always nice and it's cruel to make the baby suffer until it passes away when you can put it out of it's misery.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I did not Hi-Jack this thread it just happened! I even tried to leave it alone but the responses were great! There was no snake in misery here! People really should read the whole thread before making comments. The snakes that started this Culling debate were perfectly normal and could have been sold with no problem! If I decide I want to breed a snake that can fly and start killing all the snakes that don't fly what would you say?
 
ghosthousecorns said:
I'm not so sure the culling has really taken this thread completely off topic. It is definitely info for would be breeders, something you will have to think about.
Yes some breeders may go as far as culling perfectly healthy hatchlings. I won't- because I know to not breed so many in the first place if there won't be a demand. That's why I usually breed just 4 clutches a year, I know from being in this hobby for a while that in the course of one year I can sell or find homes for that many, but not more. So many corns are being bred that they are now becoming a "disposable" pet - look at the prices we are seeing on amels, normals, even ghosts these days. I love ghosts but have stopped breeding them for a while until some of my holdbacks reach adulthood that I think will produce something really special, not because I think I will make more money from them but because there are so many out there already. By not making them in the first place I won't have to cull them OR end up selling them for disposable pet prices.
Click to expand...

Thank you, for a sensible post!
 
smallet said:
So just to clear something up for myself. (Hypothetically) If I take my normals from a breeding and feed them to my kingsnake is it culling or just providing food to meet the natural feeding routines of that snake? We say mice are fine cause they are natural.

Devils advocate here: In nature a snake that cannot blend in to his natural enviroment is easy prey for predators. Natural selection takes care of "wrongly" colored snakes.

Btw just interested in opinions. I am enjoying this conversation.
Click to expand...

Good question! I believe that if the snake only eats other snakes, than it's perfectly fine to even raise your own snakes to feed to that snake! However if that snake could easily be switched over to mice, not only is it better but your snakes will be better off for it. I hear many people saying I use my King Snake as a way to dispose of snakes I want to Cull. That's all fine and good, but don't be surprised when you try/ if you try, to mate it and it eats it's mate because you have stimilated his taste for snakes1 I never feed any of my Kings snakes another snake. I am trying to deter them from associating other snakes as a food source. Once they eat snakes thay will always have a taste for them. Even if they never eat a snake the possibility is there but I believe it's greatly diminished!
 
Snakehead said:
Again we are not talking about kinked or deformed animals here! Please understand, I think that's ok. What bothers me is killing off snakes that are prefectly normal! You freezing Roosters or giving them to friends is fine! At least you didn't just throw them in the trash. I know many people who would have loved to have those gray banded kings he killed.
Click to expand...

If there are so many people wanting graybanded kingsnakes, why are there so many still available for sale? Same with corn snakes, and milksnakes, and rat snakes, etc. Why are certain snakes sold rapidly and others not? What makes snake A more desirable than snake B? Why produce snakes like snake B at all? What if the only way to make snake A creates twice as many snake B's in the the process? If it was possible to only hatch out the most desirable snakes without hatchling out undesirable ones, don't you think breeders would be doing that? There comes a point where to make what people want, you have to make some perfectly okay by-products that need to be disposed of simply because there is nothing else to do with them. I personally would rather want to know they were disposed of humanely than have their fate left to chance.
 
hippiebrian said:
I think I gave the wrong impression here. I do not agree with the culling of healthy animals per se. I think the breeder should, if they can't care for the animals themselves, find people who can! The reason I say this is not because i have a higher regard for life in general than people who do this but because I love the snakes and pets in general.

The only thing I'm saying is that to say I disagree with it because I have a higher regard for life would be hypocritical. Let's face it, when you watch your snake eat a mouse you just gave it while macking on a burger and talk about your higher regard for life, you are being a hypocrate.

There are pet mouse and rat owners who think we shouldn't be able to keep our pets because they eat what they consider to be pets. Do they have a higher regard for life than we do? Unless they are totally vegan and don't wear any leather, I'd have to say no. They just love their pets as much as I do. Let's face it, I know snakes naturally eat mice and rats and it doesn't really matter wether the food animals are wild or captive bred. Others don't.

What I'm saying is that I agree with your conclusions but I can't buy the reasoning. It's hypocritical. None of us has a higher regard for life in general, just in the type of animals we tend to think are disposable (cows, chickens, fish, mice, rats, etc.) and which aren't (snakes, cats, dogs, parrots, etc.)
Click to expand...

You may have a point here? I can squish a roach in a heart beat! But then it's a pest and is capable of carrying desease. I don't take pleasure in killing anything, and if I could feed my snakes bread I would be super happy, but if it is for a good reason then I have to accept it. I do have a high regard for life. As a kid I used to shoot birds with my pellet gun. I can't do that today because I don't feel like i have the right to end that life for my whims. Not if the bird is destroying my crops then maybe if all other attempts fail. Does this make any more sense?
 
Susan said:
If there are so many people wanting graybanded kingsnakes, why are there so many still available for sale? Same with corn snakes, and milksnakes, and rat snakes, etc. Why are certain snakes sold rapidly and others not? What makes snake A more desirable than snake B? Why produce snakes like snake B at all? What if the only way to make snake A creates twice as many snake B's in the the process? If it was possible to only hatch out the most desirable snakes without hatchling out undesirable ones, don't you think breeders would be doing that? There comes a point where to make what people want, you have to make some perfectly okay by-products that need to be disposed of simply because there is nothing else to do with them. I personally would rather want to know they were disposed of humanely than have their fate left to chance.
Click to expand...

Well I think that if I ever get to that point I will choose some other snake to breed. I check the graybanded ads pretty often and the ones that are reasonably priced usually sell quickly! Especially the prettier ones. There is something different going on with Graybands in that many of those collectors are into locality animals. They have put such an emphasis on locality animals, but honestly most locality animals are butt ugly and don't appeal to the average Joe. I see what has happened with cats and dogs and I think maybe your thinking stems from that? Yes people need to really think about wether they should or shouldn't breed Corn snakes. I think that's why this thread was started. But if we get to where the animals are so disposable that we are willing to kill 10 to get one good, then something went wrong! I love creating not destroying and like I said if I get to that point then I'll stop breeding them. My real problem is that I know King Snakes and I love King Snakes even more than Corn snakes. Those Kings he was killing were perfectly normal, and like I said if they were from Lee Abbot stock I bet they were beautiful! I've seen Lee's GrayBands and they are very nice.
 
By the way! I posted this subject on a King snake forum, just as an experiment and it was an overwhelming landslide against the Culling for Graybands that won't eat mice, and Cal Kings with attitudes. I found that to be very interesting! Anyway this hase been a stimulating debate and discusion, and I hope the OP doesn't mind too much. It wasn't done on purpose.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top